Fighting For Instead of With Your Husband, with Jason Davis, Bob Gresh, and Mikhail Collins

Are you tired of fighting with your husband? In this episode, Grounded husbands Jason Davis, Bob Gresh, and Mikhail Collins will give you the tools to stop fighting WITH your husband and start fighting FOR him. They’ll also share how you can safeguard your marriage from friendly fire using rhythms of forgiveness. 

Episode Notes

• Happily Even After book by Dannah Gresh 
• Living Happily Even After webinar 
• “Unexpected Grace” video with Robert Wolgemuth 
• Happily Ever After limited-series podcast preview 
• Revive Our Hearts resource library   
• Pornography, Addictions & Abuse podcast episodes
• Become a Revive Partner

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Jason Davis: Are you tired of fighting with your husband? 

Bob Gresh: He's probably tired of fighting with you too. So, it's gonna be a good day on Grounded today.

Erin Davis: The Davises are off to a great start. 

Bob: That was your big opening.

Jason Davis: I'm Jason Davis

Erin: Go ahead, Bob, you got it. 

Bob: Today we're gonna give you the tools to stop fighting with your husband and start fighting for him, which is kind of cool. I think we're gonna like this episode. We've been practicing for hours, Jason and I.

Erin: Husbands are always used to this kind of thing.

Bob: That’s dead air. It’s hard to practice. It’s hard to practice on dead air; it's really awkward.

Erin: Jason, you’ve got to tell him what Grounded is a production of.

Jason: Oh, yes. Production is a Grounded.

Dannah Gresh: Okay, this is definitely not going to be husband takeover day, Erin Davis.

Bob: Jason, we had our chance. We had a chance to take this thing over, and it all fell apart immediately. 

Jason: This is our big shot and well, what happened is I got distracted by Erin's earring.

Erin: My earring and headphones and hair. We’re all a mess. He was trying to help me. But anyway, we're here. It's gonna be great.

Jason: I took a picture of it. 

Erin: Too embarrassing. 

Dannah: Well, you guys are gonna be great cohosts today. We are excited to have you. And this is not going to be a, we're not going to fight over this, because this is the exact opposite of our purpose today. We're not going to fight with each other. Today's topic is fighting for each other. Right, Erin? 

Erin: That’s right. So, you’re guests and our cohosts today. I don't know what you thought you were doing when you came here. That's your role.

Jason: I honestly wasn't entirely sure.

Dannah: Well, we should probably confess that we fight a lot at the Gresh house. It's usually over silly things. Do you guys fight? Jason, tell me about the silliest fight the Davis house has ever had?

Erin: He started nodding very quickly. Did you see that? He was like . . .

Jason: I was prepared. I saw it in the notes. 

Erin: Yes.

Jason: One time we got in a fight about a Sprite at Annie Anne’s. 

Erin: It was a big fight about a Sprite. Right? Yeah.

Jason: Well, we only had enough money for a pretzel, and Erin ordered a pretzel and a Sprite.

Erin: After we had discussed it, at least. I stepped up to the register and said, “I’ll have a Sprite.” So that was a big fight. We fight. We do. 

Jason: It happens. 

Erin: Yeah, it does. 

Jason: We’re both strong-willed.

Erin: We are both strong-willed. Bob, what's the dumbest thing you and Dannah have ever fought about? Because I know you’ve fought. I've heard Dannah call you a high conflict couple.

Bob: Well, I was just gonna say how relaxed we are. Well, I think it was, I don't know, five years ago, when we were at the Revive Our Hearts Conference. I was nervous. We're gonna speak that day on something real serious, and I couldn't find my socks in the hotel room. I was convinced that Dannah had taken those socks or hid those socks or whatever. And so, we kind of got . . .

Dannah: Tell them how that fight ended. He was sure that I would find the socks because I knew where the socks were. But how did it actually end up?

Bob: I ended up having to wear your socks to speak on stage. It was fantastic.

Erin: I remember that day. Dannah, did you hide the socks? Were you trying to sabotage Bob?

Dannah: I have no idea where the socks are to this day.

Erin: Okay, okay. I remember that happening. I was so proud of you guys. Because on the platform, you told the story of fighting for each other. And Dannah, you have a new book out. Here's the title Happily Even After: Letting God Redeem Your Marriage, which means we're putting Danna and Bob and the guests here today to tell the story again, of how God has redeemed their marriage.

Bob: Yeah, talking about a transition, I think that was a rough day for us. But it was a good day, because I shared my testimony of the pain I brought to our marriage through lust and pornography and all the depression anxiety that kind of escalates from pornography and things. It's still hard to talk about it, but we have fought together for us. Dannah has fought for me. And we've come up in a great redemption story.

Dannah: Yeah. Just returning the favor because Erin, you know my testimony. Bob is my great forgiver. In our early marriage, I had to confess when I was a teenager, and God really used Bob to heal my heart. One of my favorite sayings . . . I had a little placard in our bathroom for years. It's just faded and worn out now, so it's in a drawer somewhere. But it says “Marriage is the union between two great forgivers.”

Erin: Mmm write that down Grounded sisters. That's what you came here for. Marriage is the union between two great forgivers. So, it's parenting and friendship and lots of other talks about that. Forgiving is one way we fight for each other. When we get grounded in God's Word today, Jason and I are going to take you to the book of Ephesians and talk about why that forgiveness is so important.

Dannah: But first, as usual, we need some good news today. Portia, you got your man Mikhail handy today?

Portia Collins: I do.

Erin: You're the only one that can get away with calling her husband her Boo.

Dannah: Yeah, that wouldn't go over here. 

Portia: It’s such a nice beard. 

Erin: It is a nice beard.

My man has left the set, so I don’t know. He’ll be back, it’s fine. 

Dannah: Jason has left. He’s left the room. 

Jason: I had to get my Bible.

Erin: This is what happens with Jaso;, he just disappears. 

Bob: Let’s comment on Mikhail’s beard, that’s amazing.

Dannah: That is an amazing beard. 

Erin: The Grounded beard award goes to Mikhail. 

Dannah: Okay, what’s the silliest fight over at the Collins’s house.

Portia: Silliest fight at the Collins’s house? I think the silliest one was when Emory was a newborn. We both were just ridiculously sleep deprived. And so, everything that either one of us said to each other or did just got on our nerves. We were just yelling at each other for no apparent reason other than being sleep deprived. So yeah, I think that went on for, just imagine a new little baby. And I'm like, what are you doing?

Erin: When you have a newborn, just your husband sleeping at all is enraging. I get like, “How dare he sleep?” 

Jason: Never have I slept better. 

Portia: Or eating, him chewing. I’m like, “Why are you chewing so loud?”

Erin: Eating a hot meal, how dare he!

Portia: Yes, yes. So well, Mikhail and I do have some good news to share. I'm excited to have him as my good news correspondent today. So, check this out, guys. If we told you that there was a five-minute daily habit that has been shown to increase your chances of marriage success dramatically, would you want to know what it is? Of course, of course, you would want to know what it is.

Mikhail Collins: While 50% of first marriages end in divorce, and 78% of second marriages end in divorce, it was less than 1% of couples who practiced this together daily in their marriages. 

Portia: Yeah. So this habit has been studied going way back to the 1990s when Gallup completed a poll revealing that couples who did this one thing for just five minutes each day decreased their own marriage failure risk to 1%. 

So, can you guess what the habit is? Take a guess in the chat. I'm sure some of you are already guessing. I'm looking in the chat. You're ready? Here it is. Prayer. 

So in 2010, the Journal of Marriage and Family conducted a survey and stumbled on to something similar. Couples who engaged in faith practices together, like going to church and praying, they actually stay together.

Mikhail: This is two years ago. The University of Georgia once again verifiws that it is really, really true, that couples that pray together, stay together. 

Portia: All right, tell them, Babe. So now, there is a little bit of bad news in this good news story. But we're not gonna call it bad news. We're gonna call it . . .

Mikhail: A challenge.

Portia: A challenge. Yes, let's call it a challenge. Surveys revealed that not many Christian couples actually pray together. You know what? I kind of believe that we like to pray solo, but sometimes it's hard for us to get together to pray together.

Mikhail: And some surveys say about 4% of those couples pray together. Others say it’s as high as at least 11%. But we think it should be much higher. So, we've got a Grounded challenge to issue today. For the next seven days, we're going to challenge you to pray together and see what God does in your relationship in your hearts.

Portia: You down for the challenge? 

Mikhail: Absolutely. 

Portia: Let's do it. Erin and Jason Davis. 

Erin: Goodness, I just like listening Mikhail Yeah, he’s got that southern Mississippi voice. Jason and Erin, we are not among the 11% or 4% that pray together very regularly. 

Jason: We pray together. 

Erin: In crisis.

Jason: Well and a lot, but it's not like we have a designated time. Like now we're praying together about this thing. 

Erin: Yeah. You're right. There’s room for improvement. I want to stay together.

Jason: Certainly, room for improvement. 

Erin: All right, Bob, and Dannah, I know that you pray together. You've been marriage mentors for us for a long time. The reason I know that you pray together for sure is because we've talked about it. But Dannah also released a book about God's redemption through Bob's battle with lust and pornography. I read a few chapters when she was writing, and it stuck out to me after I read it. I texted her and said, “WOW” in all caps, there probably were emojis, I'm not sure. But here's the sentence, “The man I prayed for became the man I prayed with.” 

So, kick us off getting grounded with God's people, Dannah. Tell us a little bit more about that thought?

Dannah: Well, for a while I was praying for my husband, because I just felt like something was off. I didn't know what it was. And in the course of us reaching out for hope, I don't care what marriage crisis you're in, you cannot do it alone. And if it involves sin, which it always does, when you're in conflict, the Christian faith is not a solo activity. Someone won you to Christ. Someone mentored and discipled you into maturity. And when you're in crisis, someone discipled you and mentored you through that. 

Someone that was helping us a lot was a man named Mike Bivins. He taught us that when we were in conflict to stop, drop, and pray. Kind of like when you're on fire when you're a little kid. You wouldn't stop, drop, and roll; stop, drop, and pray. And my man was in the middle of the fiercest fire of our marriage. 

Erin: I was gonna say it was a fire of sorts. 

Dannah: For sure. Yeah, he took it seriously. One day he came to me and said, “Can I start praying with you?” We don't frequently miss. Usually at bedtime he just lays his hands on me. He catches my hand and prays for me every night. 

Jason: Is it my turn? 

Erin: It's your turn.

Jason: Alright. So, Bob, a lot of guys find it difficult to pray with their wives, especially when they're feeling a fight coming on in the heat of that moment. Why is that? What do you have to say?

Bob: Well, I find it interesting, because I think praying with your wife is one of the more intimate things you can do. We have an intimacy problem. A lot of our marriages in the church, between men between women . . . We heard once the definition of intimacy is it's really hard to let people see into you. And I've always found it interesting that it's even hard to let your wife see into that. And prayer is really an intimate thing. And so, it was hard for me. But I realized also how safe it made Dannah feel. It was a pretty easy thing for me to do to make her feel safe. It does bring us together. There's no way to fight through a prayer. And so, we have done that pretty well.

Dannah: Yeah, it kind of diffuses the situation if you're in conflict. You stop, you drop, and you pray. Like, it just resets all your emotions and all your brain chemicals and adrenaline.

Bob: And when we don't pray at night, it's if we're in the middle of some aggravation. I don't feel like praying. It kind of says, “Hey, we're not together.” So, it's kind of hard not to pray at night now because it would send a big message that no, we're going to bed angry at each other. So, it's become a habit the last years. It's been a good habit for us. 

Dannah: I love it.

Jason: So, you already answered my question, or one of my questions. How did that affect your marriage? But how did it help specifically when you're dealing with your battle of lust and pornography?

Bob: Well, I think that really is an intimacy issue in our thoughts in our mind. Not just you have to have an intimate friendship, marriage, whatever. You have to have people looking into your life. If you don't, you go out to other places to medicate. It could be pornography; it could be work; it could be shopping; it could be just about any hobby. Most people deal with having to medicate their sadness in some way, I guess. But having someone that can know the inside of you and still love you is kind of the key to battling these things and having a victory over them.

Dannah: You know, almost any time there's something you're turning to for medication—television, scrolling the internet is a common one for women, pornography, anything that's really a sign of disordered intimacy. Because rather than saying to a friend or someone you're close to, “I'm feeling lonely. I'm feeling tempted. I'm feeling whatever you're feeling,” you go medicate, instead of being intimate with someone. And so, I think prayer and being intimate with each other was a really important part of the battle for both of us.

Erin: Yeah, that's good. And we've talked here before on Grounded that when you medicate, you end up feeling hollow. When you use the resources that God has given you, you end up feeling filled. That doesn't mean that the problem goes away, but there is a definitely a different end result. 

As Bob was talking about prayer and intimacy, Dannah, I was taken back to a conversation we had when I was a teenager. Jason I just started dating. We had a long conversation about whether we should pray together because of the intimacy factor.

Dannah: I remember.

Erin: And setting good patterns, you remember. So, our friendship is rare. 

Dannah: Well, I was gonna say when young couples are dating, a lot of times, prayer can be so intimate, that it can create some fires of conflict about how close you can be. Before you're engaged, that can create some really conflicting messages and even sometimes run into temptation. 

So, you have to be kind of careful about that. We always said to pray in public places. We would go to libraries; we were at libraries all the time we were dating. So that's a really interesting conversation. I remember that. Funny that you do.

Erin: That cracks Jason up.

Jason: That seems like you guys.

Erin: Hanging out in the library.

Jason: Lot of library things.

Bob: Don't say we’re bookish. Okay. 

Dannah: I’m bookish.

Erin: One of you is bookish. 

Well, the Gresh/Davis friendship really is rare. We've been friends for a really long time. We’ve got some stories that we will not tell on Grounded because we've been friends a lot times that might involve fireworks. As couples we've had steak dinner over zoom during quarantine. We've been in a lot of foxholes together, including the one you're talking about today. 

I don't know if I've ever told you this, Bob. But I remember where I was when I found out what was going on in your marriage. I was at an airport, and I sat down to the floor and sobbed. 

So, Jason, I just talked about our own friendships. And Jason asked a really valid question. We were talking. I was, like, spend time with your friends. Don't just always be working. And he looked at me and said, “When?” When would I spend time with friends is a valid question. So how important was it Dannah for Bob to have other men in his life? And did you have women in your life that you walked through this valley with?

Dannah: Community is one of the essential ingredients of really coming out of any kind of marriage crisis. On the right side of things, I don't think a man can recover without it. And a woman will have a really hard time and will experience what I call toxic loneliness. James 5:16 says, “Confess your sins one to another and then you will be healed.” So whether you're cussing at your husband or throwing things at them, which was actually something I did once or twice in the middle of this battle . . .

Bob: Remember that time when they threw that shoe at George Bush? It was kind of more like that.

Dannah: It's important to confess those things to someone. I found I needed two kinds of girlfriends. When Bob and I were walking through this crisis. I needed close friends like you, Erin, who I just called. I didn't hold anything back. I said, “This is what's happening in our marriage. Will you pray with us? Will you walk with us?” 

I think the reason you need that is because your close girlfriends can look you in the eye and say, “I still love you. I know who you are. I know everything about you, and I'm not going anywhere.” And that erases shame. That's so important. 

So, a lot of shame, especially in a battle, when there's some type of addictive cycle or stronghold taking place. 

The other kind of friend you need is a commiserating friend. That's a friend who has known the same pain you have known. They know the path. They know the way out. You need that. Wouldn't you agree? 

Bob: Yeah, we're just kind of chuckling at the fact that she asked you how men help. 

Dannah: Well, why don't you say cuz I'm sitting right here. 

Erin: Hi, Bob. How did your male friends help you?

Bob: I mean, I know I'm a trophy husband—me and Jason and Mikhail, it's there. We can answer directly.

Jason: Arm candy. 

Bob: Well, you know, I have time for what I make time for. And recently, last few years, I haven't made time to work out and things like that. And I think, Oh, I don't have time, too busy. But I make time for the things that I want to. When the Eagles are on TV playing football, or whatever, I somehow have the three hours to do that. And so, it's just a matter of making priority. 

In fact, Monday nights are one of the nights I get together. I always kind of want to say, “Well, I can't do it this week. I'm busy. I've been gone for five days. I don't believe it's like going off tonight.” But I had to make a decision. I need to do that because I know it's good for my life. Once I'm out there, I come back from that meeting. I'm like, that was great. To tell you the truth, I don't look forward to it all the time. But afterwards, I always think that was really important. I'm not some library nerd that hangs out at the library.

Jason: Is that where you go? You go hang out at the library?

Erin: Man, time in the library, rehearsing the Dewey Decimal System. 

Bob: We have a men’s meeting reference section. Fantastic.

Jason: So Bob, why is it so difficult for men, especially to find those kinds of friends? Is it that, you know, not many are struggling or what?

Bob: Well, the latest research says 60 to 70% of the men in the church are struggling with pornography and are maybe addicts. Pornography is so . . .

Erin: Wait a minute, what was that number again, Bob? What percentage?

Bob: 60 to 70%.

Erin: That’s what I thought you said. That makes my stomach hurt. 

Bob: Struggling in the church. It's very ubiquitous. But if you would ask, I think they'd have a really hard time admitting it. But when we lead with our limp, when I lead and talk about the things that I'm struggling with, it makes a safe place for other men. And so, it's really important that leaders lead with their limp. I think it's a John Maxwell term. Create that zone that men can also say, “Hey, I'm there with you.” There's so many men that struggle that it's something that really needs to be addressed all the time.

Erin: Maybe that's one of the things I love most about you, men flock to you. You're a leader of men, and they are drawn to you. 

Dannah, I remember you and our friend Stephanie and I were meeting, I think weekly, to pray early mornings before all of this came to light in your marriage. And you kept telling us like something isn't right. I can't put my finger on it, but something isn't right. We talked through what it was. But we prayed about it for weeks. And you were right. Your instincts were right. The Spirit was working in us. 

So, I want you to talk to that woman who's listening to this and she has that feeling that something isn't right. She senses that her husband is struggling, but he hasn't confessed. Or maybe he has confessed, but he won't get help. What does she do?

Dannah: Well, this is really interesting. The research really bears out that a woman does have the ability to read what's happening in her husband's heart. There are signals that he'll be sending that are very subtle, maybe not making eye contact. For men who are having an affair, maybe he's not present physically. For men who are struggling with pornography, he might not be physically, or he might be physically present, but not emotionally present. Your brain kind of scans this and reads it and says something's wrong. 

Now, your heart is saying, “I refuse to admit it.” But because your brain is saying something's wrong, it sends inflammation signals to your body, and you start to feel just not right. You may even feel some physical ailments. I did. I felt joint muscle pain, fatigue, headaches, things like that. 

And so, a lot of women tell me, “I knew before I knew.” I would say that. That's when you get your tools of discipleship out. I call them the tools of redemption. I know it sounds so cliche and so simple, but prayer, the Word of God, community, and prayer with my Christian sisters, those kinds of things, asking the Lord soften my husband's heart. You don't want to go accusing. And just because you might have headaches and fatigue doesn't necessarily mean your husband is struggling with pornography. 

Erin: I’m so glad you say that because we're not calling for a Grounded witch hunt here. We're saying pray about it, talk with the Spirit. 

Dannah: Right. No doubt it's just unrelated. So, you know, get your tools of redemption out, get in Christian community, and ask the Lord to soften your husband and bring him to a place of confession. That's exactly what happened in our marriage. Bob got to a place where the Holy Spirit just brought him to tell me, “This is what's going on. I can't find my way back to God and to your heart without breaking your heart. And so, I need to be honest with you.” And he was.

Erin: Yeah. And how much better than it was when he was obeying the Spirit than when you beat it out of him with anger or whatever. 

Jason: Shoe throwing, shoe throwing.

Erin: Meatloaf throwing, if you know the story.

Dannah: You know, you have to confront husbands. A lot of times men don't come to a place of confession. I would say the majority of women have husbands that don't come to a place of repentance. But I still think those steps of praying, getting in the Word and having Christian women praying for you is an important step before you confront him. For sure, that's good.

Jason: So, let's talk about forgiveness. What did that look like in your marriage?

Dannah: Well, what did it look like? It was super hard.

Bob: Dannah was a great forgiver for me. That would take a load off me. I think one of the hard things is that when I confessed, it took a huge load off of me—kind of vomiting all my stuff out and that landed on her. And so, what happens a lot is that the guy walks away feeling great, because he's free, and the woman is standing there, covered up. 

And it's kind of like, talking about kind of like the running over her with a car and banging my head on the steering wheel. And the ambulance comes against me and lets her sit in the middle of the road. And so that's one of the keys is—forgiveness. And in following up, when she forgave me, there was also things I could do to create some boundaries in our lives that made her feel safe.

Dannah: So, a husband confesses, and he's at the beginning of his healing journey, right? But she's just at the beginning of the journey. You have to be very patient with your wife. And Bob was very patient with me and waited for me to be really ready. I think one of the mistakes good-meaning people do is say, “You just have to forgive him.” Well, you need full disclosure, you need to understand everything that's happening, and you need your heart to stabilize, so that when you forgive him, it actually is authentic, and you can walk it out and not the next day retaliate or be angry or throw things. 

Erin: Dannah, you and I were in a hotel a couple of days after this nuclear bomb, and your body was having a full-on trauma response. You were in control of your body, you were choosing to forgive him, but very real things were happening inside of your heart. And that didn't mean you don't have faith or you weren't willing to forgive. It just meant you've been hit by a nuclear bomb.

Dannah: And my recommendation is when women are in that place, it's not advisable at that moment to walk into the work of forgiveness. It might be days, it might be weeks, it might be months, depending on the severity of the offenses, to where she can really verbalize that forgiveness in a way that she means it and not the next day inflict harm on him. The goal is not to pass sin back and forth to one another, but to actually walk in authentic forgiveness.

Erin: That's good. Bob, how did you know Dannah was gonna fight for you and not with you in the midst of that?

Bob: Well, she's always a fighter. We were always committed to our marriage. There was an advantage that we're trying to pass on to other people. Dannah knew the statistics. She knew how many men were fighting with this. And so, it was a little bit more in perspective. For me, it wasn't good. There's no question about that. But it wasn't that she didn't understand that this was a spiritual battle that many men face. 

But it would have been a lot easier for her to walk away. 

Dannah: Yeah.

Bob: And she didn't. And, you know, we talked about the fact that if women are in an abusive situation, or their husbands are hurting them in any way that, they had to take care of themselves. But when you can fight for your marriage, it's worth it. It's worth the cost.

Dannah: Marriage is a picture of the love of Christ for His Bride, the Church—Ephesians 5:31 and 32. “For this reason, a man and wife a man will leave his father and mother and be united to his wife and the two will become one flesh. And I'm really talking about Christ in the Church.” It's almost like Paul has ADD. He's like, “I'm talking about marriage relationship here. The oneness of husband and wife.” He's like, “But no, no, no, I'm talking about Christ and the Church.” Your marriage is worth fighting for because it's a picture of the holiest love relationship on the planet. And you're not a fool for participating in the redemption story of your husband's life.

Bob: That’s what I wanted to say, but I just let her say it. 

Erin: Amen. That was beautiful. But our exclamation point is right there. 

Jason: You probably wrote that down for her, right Bob?

Erin: He probably did. 

Bob: She was just reading what I was writing.

Erin: The book is titled Happily Even After: Let God Redeem Your Marriage. It's available now wherever books are sold. Bob and Dannah were on Revive Our Hearts last month telling this redemption story even in more detail than you've heard here. We're going to drop the link in the episode notes.

Dannah, anything else you want your Grounded sisters to know?

Dannah: Well, I want to invite all of you to a live webinar that we're having with our marriage counselor and our marriage coach next Monday night, March 20. You're all invited to hear firsthand the great biblical counsel that helped us fight for instead of with each other. It's not just for couples whose battle is less than pornography. It's for any couple that wants their marriage to come out of a pit, that they're having a hardship and they want to experience God's redemption. We'll drop a link so that you can join us.

Erin: I'm so glad you told us about that. You've been long champions of our marriage. And we're really grateful; we owe you a debt for that. So, thanks for being vulnerable. Thanks for being on Grounded; we love you so much.

Jason: Be nice to have you here sometime soon.

Erin: Yeah, you’ve got to come to the farm in Missouri.

Bob: We’ve obviously been thinking about that. We're gonna make that happen.

Erin: We’d love to have you. 

Jason: And we need to get up to Pennsylvania too. 

Erin: Okay, we’ll put both trips on the calendar. 

Erin: Some of you are listening to this, and you're thinking that's nice. They're sitting together on the camera and looking sweetly at each other. But you're nowhere close to your happily even after. Some of you are on the other end of the spectrum like us and have a mostly happy marriage. But you still have to navigate the stresses and pain points of everyday life. What then?

Robert Wolgemuth is married to the one and only Nancy DeMoss Wolgemuth, who is the founder and president of Revive Our Hearts. He has some really helpful and biblical advice. So, watch this short clip

Robert Wolgemuth: Our dream for our marriage is that it would be a marriage marked by going first. Going first to serve, going first to love, going first to ask forgiveness, going first to repent. Going first, to reach out to. Using Christ as our example of going first. 

So, our dream, my dream, Nancy's dream, is to love married couples who are facing the daily stuff, like we're going to face, and encouraging husbands or wives to go first. 

“Well, my husband doesn't deserve me to treat him like this.” You go first. You respect him. You honor him. Give him the joy of becoming the person you think he is. 

And the husband back to the wife, the same thing going first. “You know the thing that happened yesterday that we got in a fight about? I'm going to tell you first that I need for you to forgive me. I had no business talking to you like that.” Rarely in a relationship do you regret doing that. Rarely.

Erin: Huh? You go first, did you hear that? We're giving you all kinds of relationship nuggets. In this episode of Grounded, our pastor, Pastor Tim, has often said from the pulpit, “If your idea of marriage is to go 50/50, you'll never meet. But if you’re gonna go 80%, you're gonna meet in the middle.” So that's what Robert was saying, there.

Jason: And almost anytime I hear anything from Robert. It's like, oh, this is great stuff.

Erin: Yeah, we gotta get him to Missouri.

We're gonna stay grounded in God's Word. Dannah and Bob were already pointing us to God's Word. But we're gonna open our Bibles together just for a minute here. We want to stay on this topic of forgiveness. 

And here is kind of the bottom line. If you watch Grounded much at all, you know I'm a bottom line girl. And here's the bottom line. Your family is either a forgiveness machine, or your family is a bitterness machine. There's really not a third option, because you're a sinner, and you're married to a sinner. If you have children or grandchildren, you're raising sinners. So, it's not a matter of if but when you will sin against each other.

Bob talked about the grief of knowing that he had sinned and its impact on Dannah. Man, the great grief of my life is that Jason and our sons are all walking around with shrapnel in their hearts and lives because of my sin. I'm sure you feel the same way about the way your sin impacts us. So, that makes me choke up a little bit. I don't like that thought. And so, you will sin against each other in your family and that could look like a lot of different things. 

It could look like lying to each other which is something that Scripture forbids and places like that. Leviticus 19:11 specifically says, “Do not lie to one another.” You ever lie to your spouse? How about bitter jealousy, selfish ambition, bragging to impress not telling the truth about each other. Those are things we're warned against in James chapter 3, verses 14–16. In fact, James, chapter 3 calls those things demonic. How's that for sobering?

Ever gotten to bed angry with your man? Well, Ephesians 4:26 tells you not to do that. So, I could go on and on. But you get the point. 

Your marriage provides many, many opportunities to choose forgiveness. And your marriage gives you many, many opportunities to choose not to forgive. But when you forgive, you aren't just fighting for your marriage. This fight that we're inviting you into is much bigger than that. So, I'm going to have Jason read to us from Ephesians chapter 6. Baby, can you read us Ephesians 6:12–13?

Jason: And there's nothing more exciting than reading the Bible.

Erin: In front of people. 

Jason: In front of thousands of people.

Erin: I don't think there's any weird names in there. 

Jason: Probable or anything like that, there's a good chance that I will mess this up. Thank you all for your grace. If I was reading it by myself, no one would know.

Erin: It sounds eloquent. 

Jason: Yeah, perfect. “For we do not wrestle against flesh and blood, but against the rulers against the authorities, against the cosmic powers of this present darkness, against the spiritual forces of have of evil in heavenly places. Therefore, take up the whole armor of God that you may be able to withstand in the evil day, and having done all to stand firm.”

Erin: Do you feel like you’re back in first grade when you had to read?

Jason: Yes, terrified. 

Erin: So sorry.

Jason: I had a nightmare about this. 

Erin: We're not going to take the time to unpack it today. But in the chapter before this, Ephesians 5, which Dannah mentioned, Paul wrote about how Christian marriage is a picture of Christ and the Church. 

And what I want you to see is that Paul moved on from that picture of this. I'm talking about Christ and the Church, he said. But in Ephesians 5:20–33, he moved from there to talking about how a Christian family should operate. So, follow the progression with me, every text is part of a context. And of course, those verses in Ephesians 5 are inspired by the Holy Spirit, and they matter. 

But what was the bigger picture of what Paul was writing about here? He said, in Ephesians 5:20–33, he's talking about husbands and wives. Then in the beginning of Ephesians 6:1–4, he switched to parents and children. And then in Ephesians 6:5–9, he moved to slaves and masters, we could probably translate that to our interactions with our bosses and our coworkers and those we do work with. And then he gets to the verses we just read about.

So, it was in the context of our everyday relationships with those we live with. Let me read you verse 12 again, “For we do not wrestle against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the authorities against the cosmic powers of this present darkness, against the spiritual forces of evil in the heavenly places.” 

This is what Dannah was describing, that she chose not to fight against Bob, because she knew there was a bigger battle going on in which the enemy wanted to destroy their marriage because he wanted to destroy the picture of Christ and the Church. 

So, the image that the image Scripture gives us of marriage is two soldiers in God's army, standing shoulder to shoulder, like we are now, against the evil one. 

You've probably heard the term “friendly fire.” It's a real tragedy. And so, what happens when a soldier is accidentally wounded or killed by a stray bullet fired from his own side, and what forgiveness does and that rhythm of forgiveness, it's not a one and done. It's definitely not a once and for all, but a rhythm of, “You sinned against me, I forgive you. I sinned against you, please forgive me.” 

What that does is it keeps friendly fire from happening in our marriages where we wound each other, instead of firing at the enemy who's got us in his sights. 

So, everything you've heard about forgiveness is true. I often hear that forgiveness is like drinking poison and expecting the other person to die as true. Forgiveness is going to free you from the poison of bitterness. And it's true that forgiveness is going to free your husband. But it's so much bigger than that. 

What Jesus modeled for us on the cross is that forgiveness raises spiritual weapons and fires them right at who they belong to be fired at, Satan. 

So, you don't forgive your husband because he deserves it, maybe he doesn't. You don't forgive your husband because he said he was sorry. As Dannah said, many husbands do not confess on their own. The primary reason you forgive is because Jesus forgave you. And because a husband and wife who stand together and push back the darkness . . . We can't push back the darkness at the Davis household, you can't push back the darkness at your household, if you're too busy firing shots at each other, trying to decide how long you can hold on to that bitterness or anger before you let it go. So don't think of forgiveness as a strategy for your marriage necessarily, as much as it is a strategy in the battle against the forces of evil. I know we all want to win that. Any thoughts from you?

Jason: I think what you said was absolutely brilliant. 

Erin: Thanks, Baby.

Collins party of two calling you back onto the screen.

Portia: You know, I love how lovingly Jason looks at you the whole time where you're talking. He's just like hanging on to your every word. 

Jason: I’m pretty crazy about her. 

Portia: Take notes, Mikhail. 

Well, guys, it is time to give you the good stuff. That's the inside scoop. And we know you won't find it anywhere else. We want to give you the tools to keep you grounded. And first up, we've got Bob and Dannah. They're releasing a limited series podcast based on Dannah's new book Happily Even After. In just eight episodes this couple will explore seven beliefs that every marriage needs experience in order to actually experience God's redemption. 

Mikhail: How exciting!

Portia: Yeah. 

Mikhail: We've got a preview link to the pilot episode. So, you can start listening right now. The link is in the comments. And it's also in the show notes.

Portia: Good. Good job. See the show notes. Check it out y’all. All right. We've talked about pornography today. And unfortunately, it is not just the man's problem, women struggle too. Whether it's you or your husband who needs help, we've got an entire collection of podcasts and articles at Revive Our Hearts that will provide two things that we like to give out here: hope and perspective. And it's just for you. Hey Boo, why don't you say this next one?

Mikhail: So we'll drop the links in the comments. And in the show in the show notes. 

Portia Good job. I'm trying to keep it easy for him, guys. I love the way that you're handling this. What am I gonna do without you next week? 

All right, by the way, let me send out this last friendly reminder. I'm super excited about this. Now, don't you just love the tools that we give out to keep you grounded every week, week after week? And did you know that these tools and resources are largely made possible because of our Revive Partners. 

God has been using the gifts of faithful friends for quite some time now to write a story in the lives of women all around the world. And God is writing that story through our work, our mission here at Revive Our Hearts. If this ministry has made an impact in your life, then guess what? It's true that our story is your story, too. 

So today, I want you to do two things. We've been given challenges today, and I'm gonna keep it coming—two things I need you to do. Number one, if you know someone who is a Revive Partner, show your appreciation and tell them thank you. They helped to make this podcast possible. All of our content, all of our resources, our partners help us to make it possible. 

And number two, if you have no clue what a Revive Partner is, then I need you to hop on over to the website and learn more. I do hope that you will be prayerfully considering joining the Revive Partner family. We'll drop a link to the website in the show notes and in the chat. 

Dannah: Nicely done, guys. Hey, Portia. I'm so glad you included women in this conversation. The stats are that roughly 30% of women in the church are struggling and I want to make sure that if that's you, you visit that link we just shared and you get some of the resources at Revive Our Hearts to get you on your journey of redemption. As you can imagine, the comments are lit up. This is a hot topic, lots of things coming in from single women. 

This is Muthoni. She says, “This is an eye-opening, gospel-oriented conversation, especially for a single adult woman who has envisioned marriage as this perfect thing and not a union of two imperfect selves.”

Erin: We love our single Grounded sisters. That's a really good point.

Dannah: It's a really good point. 

Erin: And yes, we did. We showcased it in perfection, beautifully, Jason. 

Jason: Well, it's been about a year since the husbands were invited on Grounded. And after today, I'll see you in about a year-and-a-half to two years. 

Erin: No, we’ll have you back anytime. 

Bob: We’re only on during sweeps week in the ratings count. 

Erin: Yup that’s right. You’re our silver bullet husbands. 

Dannah: We were really glad to have you today. Thank you, Baby. In fact, let me read this other comment from Amy because I love that she says this. Amy writes, “True brokenness does not demand a party.” Is that a quote of the day? True brokenness does not demand a party, and she was referring to Bob's patience. She says her true brokenness asked to be a servant. I love how Dannah says that Bob was patient. This helps the healing process for the offended. It’s a good thing to add when you're forgiving someone or being forgiven. Dollop it with a dose of God's patience. 

Erin: That's really, really good. Well, unfortunately, our husbands will not be with us next week, which is probably good for my cheeks. My cheeks hurt after you're on because I smile so much. You make me smile. But of course, we'll be here, and we have a really big reason to celebrate. You're gonna have to tune in next week to find out why. Okay husbands, take us away. 

Jason: We’ll, let’s wake up with hope . . .

Bob: . . . together next week with . . . Jason I'll help you out. 

Dannah: They got it done.

Mikhail: Grounded audio is powered by Skype. Grounded as a production of Revive Our Hearts calling women to freedom, fullness, and fruitfulness in Christ.

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