Live the Christian Life with Courage, with Rosaria Butterfield

Do you feel the impact of living in an anti-Christian world? In this episode of Grounded, guest Rosaria Butterfield shares wisdom to help you face hostility to biblical truth.

Connect with Rosaria 

Website: https://rosariabutterfield.com/

Episode Notes

• Five Lies of Our Anti-Christian Age book by Rosaria Butterfield:
  https://www.amazon.com/dp/1433573539/ref=cm_sw_r_as_gl_api_gl_i_KRY7C3HDNT4YG10F2SXV?linkCode=ml1&tag=r095a-20

• “Tippy's Teaching Me” season of The Deep Well with Erin Davis podcast:
  Trailer: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L8qk6ghElc0
  Videos: Coming January 4: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L8qk6ghElc0&list=PLGCiZTmiNdWcQbGlm0LVUv4UCGlitICqP
  Podcast: Coming January 4: https://www.reviveourhearts.com/podcast/the-deep-well/season/tippys-teaching-me/
   
• Give a year-end gift to Revive Our Hearts: https://www.reviveourhearts.com/donate/share-hope/

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Dannah Gresh: Well, good morning, Friend. Welcome to Grounded. Today we're going to talk about living in an anti-Christian world. It's a world not unlike the anti-Jewish world, that our Jesus, our Savior Jesus, was born into more than 2000 years ago. I'm wondering today, do you feel it? 

Erin Davis: I'm Erin Davis, and I certainly feel it. I would say maybe the place I feel it most is in raising kids right now. I tell my kids all the time. “Listen, when Mama was a kid, the sky was blue. The grass was green. There were some things we could agree on. There was some idea of things being true. Not so much anymore.” And that can make it very difficult to point your kids in the right direction, so I'm feeling it. 

Dannah: I bet you are, Erin Davis. I bet you are. I think I am most concerned about my grandbabies. Anybody who's raising little ones or praying for little ones feels it. 

And I'm wondering, does it hit home for you, dear Grounded sister? How have you felt the anti-Christian thought impacting your life, impacting your relationships? We want to know. Tell us in the comments. And as always, the Grounded prayer team is watching, and they will lift you up. 

Now, stick around. We're going to dish out some hope and perspective related to this very traceable problem. It's a problem that I think every Christian will face in the coming year. And that's this hostility to biblical truth. 

Erin: Yeah, I mean, I know we haven't gotten to Christmas yet. But right after Christmas is New Year's, which you might be thinking about your “word of the year,” or what you're going to focus on. Steadfastness is the thing that we're going to need in 2024. 

Our guest today is Rosaria Butterfield. If you are a Grounded faithful, you've seen her on here before; she's really one of our favorites. She's got a PhD in Gender and Women's Studies. She was a tenured professor at Syracuse University. So, she's got some chops when it comes to critical thinking, which I appreciate, because this conversation can feel complicated. It can feel confusing. 

She's here to walk us through many of the lies that we are being told in this post-Christian era. They are often related to those issues of gender and women. So again, I point back to this. Rosaria knows how to think about these things 

Dannah: She does. I love that you say she has chops. 

Erin, can we just go back to the word traceable? I said that a moment ago. It's not just that some of us feel like there's more hostility toward Christian thought. I mean, I feel it. This year there was a small faction of women seeking to discredit me as a Christian author and teacher. I had some super nasty days on social media. 

Erin: I mean, as your friend, I did not like it. 

Dannah: Yeah, right. The words that were used to describe me, to describe my husband, I wouldn't even say here on Grounded, and they have cut like a knife. So it's natural, I feel this hostility. But is it real? I never want us to follow our feelings. So the question I asked over the weekend was, “Is there data to merit?” We wake up, and pay attention to these kinds of encounters? So is it real? Yeah.

Erin: And you might feel the opposite of Dannah. You might feel like, Well, everything seems fine in my neck of the woods, and maybe they're making a big deal about nothing. So again, we want to lay a case, or let Dr. Rosaria Butterfield lay down a case, because it is real.

And so, we did some digging beginning in 2022. The Family Research Council set out to analyze publicly available data. These are people that know how to do research and put that research out into the world. They wanted to identify any possible trends in acts of vandalism, arson, bomb threats, gun related incidents, and other acts of hostility perpetuated against churches in the United States. 

And their findings indicated that criminal acts against churches have been steadily on the rise for the past several years. And did you hear where I was talking about? Here in the West, in the United States

We may be used to hearing those ideas in other places, none of that makes it okay. But I'm talking about right here. Get this. There was a dramatic increase reported in the first half of 2023. We're still waiting for the end of year data.

Dannah: Yeah, exactly. And what you're talking about doesn't include the non-physical stuff. The linguistic theft of very important words, words like “woman.” The word wars waged; they're so dangerous. I think they're more dangerous in many ways. They have much more long-term rippling effects. 

I'm thinking about a headline I found over the weekend. The FBI was actually investigating a Christian denomination for quote, bigotry, unquote, and referring to this domination as “violent extremists,” and quote, “potential terrorists.” Why? Why would they investigating them for holding to biblical views?

Erin: Okay, Grounded sisters, now's not the time to click away because this feels scary and you don't want to face it. Now's the time to be wide awake, taking notes, eager to share this episode. I never heard that term before, Dannah, linguistic theft. But that is absolutely happening. We should be alarmed but not scared. It's a wake up call, to be sure.

Dannah: Yeah. Now, here's what you're not going to hear today on Grounded: political activism directed outside of the church. Can everyone just take a big Christmas sigh of relief.

Erin: Amen. 

Dannah: Because the anti-biblical thinking this is where we're not going to take a sigh of relief is happening in our Christian gatherings. That's what we want to address today. Those women who have been stirring up social media slander against me this year, they do it as woke Christian feminists. And so, we're going to have what I call a family conversation today. 

In fact, I spent three hours with Rosaria Butterfield last week, and I can promise you this: this is a must-hear conversation. It hasn't even happened yet, but I'm that confident in it. 

She is uniquely equipped and experienced to talk about some of these things. And in recent weeks, she's taken some criticism for her bold declarations. That criticism came from within the church. So I beg you to share this program now, because we're concerned about what's happening right inside some of our very own church homes. 

Erin: That was a lot. Did you hear what Dannah called this? She called this a family talk. So when the Davis family, when Jason or I say we’ve got to have a family meeting, our boys know it's something serious. It's something important, and it's something that we're gonna kind of lock arms in and take care of together as a family. That's what this is. 

So let me say this, I am so grateful that you can take a break from the demands of this busy season and sit with us for a while. I get it. There are so many things to do. 

If you know, Dannah mentioned this, but there's part of the Christmas story that sometimes gets glossed over because we want to get to that beautiful baby in the manger, which I understand. But it's this: Jesus himself chose to be born into a culture that didn't want to recognize Him as the Savior of the world. Of course, He picked the timing of His birth. And the people in that culture did not want to live their lives according to His law. So, not much has really changed. This isn't exactly new news

Dannah: But it is with the lens of hope and perspective. That's something we help you put on every Monday, every Wednesday through the podcast. You can see the good news. And Erin, I'm guessing that you have some for us today. Is it true?

17:54 - Good News (with Erin)

Erin: I do have good news. You might have noticed we're missing Portia girl. She had some other assignments today. She usually just bursts through with sunlight. But I'll do my best to deliver the good news this morning. 

Merry Christmas. We haven't said that yet. We want to take the time to say that. And one thing we want to do often here on Grounded is draw your attention to our Christian brothers and sisters who are suffering for their faith around the world. We don't want the Grounded sisterhood to be myopic in any way. We want you to look around and ask, “What is God doing in the world?” And it's not as rare as we might like to believe. 

The United States Commission on International Religious Freedom (again, this is a secular research agency) just released a new report on anti-conversion laws (which sounds are just what they sound like, places where it's illegal to convert to another faith around the world). 

So, these are official laws on the books that make it illegal to adopt a new religion or just share your faith with others. Did you know that sharing your faith is illegal in twenty-nine nations as I'm recording this episode. 

In Morocco, for example, it's illegal—yes, illegal—to cause a Muslim to question his or her faith. Converting to another religion is restricted in seven nations, including: Iraq, Malaysia, and Myanmar. I did some fact checking. Christianity is not the state supported faith in any of these countries. 

So, it's very likely that Christians in this country are going to face government restrictions. And these countries are going to face government restrictions for putting their faith in Jesus. That's kind of the fine print and these laws. 

In at least seven countries, it's illegal to convert to another faith and including Mauritania, Saudi Arabia, Yemen. The official punishment in those nations is death—execution for converting to follow Jesus or another faith that is not the state sponsored religion—execution. I'm not talking about in the Dark Ages. I'm talking about right now, as we are ending 2023. 

And one in four nations around the world, religious conversion is restricted—one in four nations, Now, none of those are in the Western Hemisphere. That part of the world, which has been in recent centuries, centuries been home to Christian nations. 

Oh, I'm sorry, did you come here for good news? The study I mentioned above isn't the only important data point. The 2023 status of global Christianity report found that the religious are growing 2.5 times as fast as the non-religious 

Now, you're not going to read on the headlines. Everybody's talking about the nones, and now the nones don't know how fast they're growing. But actually, the research isn't fleshing that out quite as clearly as some like to say. 

And so despite the attention given to those nones in recent years, less than 2% of the people around the world are atheists. People are in fact looking for truth. And Christianity is growing and continues to be the largest religion in the world. 

There are 2.6 billion followers of Jesus living on the earth right now. And where are the hotspots of growth? They're in the Middle East. They're in Asia, they're in Africa. And in case you are as geographically challenged, as I am, most of the countries I listed as restricting the freedom of Christians, where are they? Well, they're in the Middle East and Asia and Africa. 

So here's the really good news. Cultural tides will ebb and flow and those in power will at times try to suppress the truth about Jesus. It started when He was born; it will continue until He returns. But here's the good news, sisters, the gospel cannot be stopped, and the Church will stand. 

If we're honest, none of us want to face oppression. What's happening in the world right now and has happened since Pentecost is that in the places where serving Jesus is most challenging, the gospel is also the most vibrant church in the ultimate sense. We have nothing to fear, and that is good news, Dannah.

Dannah: That is very good news. I got chills. I mean, it is true. Yeah, people are being persecuted in the harshest of ways. That is where Jesus is showing up and shining His light in the most beautiful ways.

Erin: Yeah, when the darkness gets darker, the light shines brighter. And so there's so much hope to that reality.

22:40- Grounded with God's People (Rosaria Butterfield)

Dannah: Thank you for that, Erin. It is something that we need you to hear before we hear from our next guest, our only guest today. It's time to get Grounded with God's people. If you're just joining us, Dr. Rosaria Butterfield is with us. She's an author, speaker, pastor's wife, a homeschool mom and former professor of English and Women's Studies at Syracuse University. She's the author of a new book. I've read it, and I love it: Five Lies of our Anti-Christian Age. 

Welcome back Rosaria.

Rosaria Butterfield: Thank you so much. It's my joy to be here.

Dannah: Well, Rosaria, the title of your book, Five Lies of our Anti-Christian Age there's a declaration right off the top. Are we in fact living in an anti-Christian age?

Rosaria: Yes. We know that not just by how we feel, as you said before, but by the reality that has been put forward by some Supreme Court decisions and other things. 

The Obergefell decision in 2015 that legalized gay marriage in all fifty states did so on the grounds of animus, on the grounds that all these years that gay marriage was not legal was because people are homophobic and denying a supposedly God-given right.

One of the other things that came out of the Obergefell decision was the dignitary harm clause, which is why people are losing their jobs for not using fake transgender, quote unquote, “transgender pronouns.” And what that says is that if you deny a person's “dignity” within their LGBTQ identity, you are harming them. 

Now, you all know I lived as a lesbian. Blood is on my hands. Part of why I wrote this book is when I was a lesbian and lived in New York, I wrote policy; I participated in legislative moves. This is the world I helped create, sadly. Even though I am a Christian, I've been forgiven. I'm also a grandma. I know if I made the mess, I need to clean it up. This book is my attempt to do it. 

So this dignitary harm clause is a really important one to think about. And then after that Title IX and Bostock, and so we have so many examples of why we live in an anti-Christian age that we could spend our whole fifteen minutes on it. 

Dannah: Yeah, we could. I feel like the floodgates just opened after Obergefell that that the world change, like you just felt something different. And you've written this book Five Lies of our Anti-Christian Age. Most of those lies have to do with sexuality and gender. It makes me wonder, do those kinds of lies matter more than other categories?

Rosaria: Well, yes, they do. I think many of us have been concerned about Critical Race Theory and other examples of Neo-Marxism. Especially, as you said, within the church. I expect the world to be the world. But I have moms and grandmas write to me, and stop me at Costco and say, “Why can't we major on the majors anymore? Why doesn't the Church agree on what the majors are?” So that is a part of the concern here. 

But yes, absolutely, it matters more. And that's because attacking, being in rebellion against God's created order, is a rebellion against what it means to be an image bearer of a holy God. 

Genesis 1:27, is what theologians call the creation ordinance. It says that we are made in the image of God as a man or as a woman. That means that we are going to be a man or a woman in eternity. When I speak at school boards, the subject of transgenderism and junk science and parental rights, and people boo and they hiss. I invite parents over who have just castrated their fourteen-year-old son for dinner—no kidding. 

You know, one of the things we need to say to them is that in the gospel, there is hope. We are not here to hold you up as an example of what not to be. There is hope the gospel, because in the New Jerusalem, you are going to be the man you are meant to be on Earth. 

And so, this attack, this rebellion against God's created order is really significant. And that is what homosexuality and transgenderism are. They are an attack against God's created order. They are not natural; they are not normal. They are not an aspect of personality. They are not immutable. They are found in the flesh, forbidden in the law and overcome in the Savior.

Born again Christians change. And part of why the Church is limping along is we have believed these false teachers who say things like same-sex attraction is just a temptation, it's not a sin. And we've in some ways denied repentance to people at the very moment when you could maybe fight your sin. 

So it's time that moms and grandmas really just start being the TItus 2 women that we were expected to be and say, “You know, what? Not in my house. Not in my church. I don't buy this.” 

Dannah: Well, our hearts are stirred, my heart is stirred. I'm standing at attention. Other hearts are stirred. I would love to unpack all of these lies. As you said, we would need at least fifteen minutes for each of them. But you brought up a bunch of information about the Lie Number One: homosexuality is normal is becoming normalized in the church. Why is that a lie?

Rosaria: Well, it's a lie because you cannot be made in the image of God as a gay man or a lesbian woman or a non-binary, whatever. And that is because image bearing is tied up with what it means to be a man or a woman. 

We see that in Genesis 1:27–28. And in fact, God isn't some masked, mad engineer that creates a bridge to go dump into a lake. He created a pattern for a purpose. And the purpose of being a man or a woman, indeed, is to be fruitful and multiply. 

So heterosexuality is, in fact, the normal consistent baseline. So a world that's growing in homosexuality, a world that's growing and transgenderism, and God forbid a church that is accepting this as normal, is really under judgment. 

And we haven't even talked about something like rapid onset gender dysphoria, which has nothing to do with a medical problem, but everything to do with a social contagion that is unleashed when you tell thirteen-year-old girls that there's a solution to the problem they have, because they feel awkward in their bodies, and that they must be an ally to the LGBTQ+ community and extend empathy in order to be of any use. 

So, we've been catechizing our children on a pretty worldly diet without even realizing it. We know Joel 2:25, “The Lord will make up for the days that the locusts have eaten.” So if anybody listening to this thinks, I'm in too deep, the Lord can change the course of our lives, give us victory and hope. Immediately, we need to get on our knees and repent and not just pretend that we can add these false teachers and this false teaching into our churches into our gospel and make peace that way. Heresy brings faction not peace. 

Dannah: Okay, so those are some pretty bold claims. We're getting into some, I mean, you're saying it with a sweet kind tone, but these could feel like harsh words. So, I want to unpack it a little bit. When you say there's some false teaching. Can you give me one specific example of something that you're concerned about in terms of the kind of teaching that's normalizing homosexuality inside the church?

Rosaria: Right, it's become a slogan. But it is a slogan supported with a false understanding of James 1. And that slogan is same sex-attraction is a temptation, and Jesus was tempted in all ways, so he probably even maybe experienced all of these things. I'm not agreeing with that. So the slogan is: same sex-attraction is a sinless temptation, not a morally culpable sin. And furthermore, you're laying heavy burdens around the necks of “gay people,” if you call them to repent of their sin. 

So Christians are expected to just sort of nod, in a sense, you know biblical marriage is good. But then we deny repentance unto life, life-changing gospel grace to the people like the person that I used to be. We don't want to be harsh. We don't want to lay heavy burdens on the backs of people. But we're not so sure. Is it true? 

Is it true that there is such a thing as a gay person? Can you be a gay Christian? Well, gay and trans come from the world, the flesh, and the devil. They are not commensurate with image bearing. Image bearing is something we all struggle with. We have to grow in the knowledge, righteousness, and holiness of Jesus. 

Jesus is not gay. Jesus is not trans. Jesus is, praise be to God, not filled with any sin. He was not born in sin. And so although He was tempted by external things, He was not tempted by His sin nature, because He didn't have one.

But same sex-attraction is technically an indwelling sin. It is a nature problem. If we deny people the opportunity to repent of it at the level of temptation, it's because it's like an embryo. But we know an embryo is going to grow to be that which is what in its nature to become. So when is it easier to fight your sin? When it's an embryo? Or when it's a dragon?

So what we do is we set up all of these people and we say, “Oh, you have same-sex attraction like you have cancer, you have a cold. Well, don't worry about it, don't feel guilty, don't repent. People who say that you need to repent are mean. just flourish, you know, flourish in whatever.” 

And then when they are just beaten down, destroyed, taken out by this giant, we say, “Oh, now that's a sin. You need to fight it.” We never gave them the tools. So James 1 doesn't say temptation is not a sin, don't fight it, fight it when it becomes a sin. James 1 basically points out the lifecycle of sin, like those charts we have on our walls in our homeschool room, the lifecycle of a butterfly, so the lifecycle of sin. 

So by saying same sex-attraction is a temptation, it's not as sin that has unleashed false teaching into many, many churches. Here's the challenge. Al Mohler wrote a wonderful piece called, “The Train Has Left the Station.” Many of us read it. It was about Andy Stanley's church. 

Okay, if you're on a train, and it's going to the wrong station, do you think that you can turn the train around by talking to all the other people on the train about how you're going to the wrong station? No, you have to get off the train, you have to get off the train. You have to get on a train that takes you in the other direction. 

And so, that metaphor is really good for what it means to be right now in a church that's on a train going to the wrong station. Part of why this is so important is that our children are at stake. We want to go to bat for them. 

As I said, I speak at school board meetings. My twenty-year-old son who goes to a public university, we homeschooled him, but he's twenty, after all, so he's at a public university. And he has pointed out some very important things. He comes as my bodyguard. Often he'll say things like, “Mom, that was hard, because I get booed.” You have to give your actual name, your actual address. It's a little threatening. 

And he said, “Mom, these are the people that Jesus came to save.” And so afterwards, we meet people. We invite them over to dinner, and they come. And that's because God has put eternity in the hearts of everyone.

Dannah: Yeah, they want to talk. They want to figure this out. They want to get to the truth. Or maybe they just want to convince you that you need to get to the truth. But hey, they're coming. Right? They're spending time with you. 

It breaks my heart that you have to use the word “bodyguard.” That breaks my heart, but you are saying some brave and important things. Our church is in crisis. One survey I read said that roughly 30% of evangelical Protestants believe that gender is a matter of choice. That is alarming to me. 

At the same time, I get nervous when you start naming names. You just named a name. So I want to give you the opportunity, because you've been very criticized for that in recent days. Why do we need to name names? I don't know if I need to name names. Why do you feel the Lord is calling you to do that right now?

Rosaria: Because I talk to moms and grandmas who are not going to the big conferences, are not going to go home with a bag of bling from this major evangelical organization. But they do have a daughter coming home for Christmas who thinks her name is Jack, and they really need some practical help. 

And so, I name names for two reasons. One is: I'm an English professor. It's called citing your sources. So if I'm going to give you an example of a problem, I don't want you to be afraid of the boogeyman or the spaghetti monster. I want you to know that there are books that I can quote from. These are the problems, and you can go to those sources, and you can decide for yourself. 

And the other reason might be more specific to my own church and denomination. I'm a psalm singer. We sing psalms in the worship of God. Try to sing psalms and not name names. There's all kinds of names in there. 

And so, I think it's just part of being a grown up. And the other sources obviously we need to cite are Scripture. There is no biblical distinction between sex and gender. But biological sex and cultural gender are an invention of the . . . They're a very modern invention. So when I say modern, I'll take anything after the nineteenth century, because I am a nineteenth century scholar. But it's a very modern invention to introduce as a new category of personhood. Gender is a new category of personhood, separate and distinct from biological sex in pursuit of a different gender, or sexual identity is harmful. It's harmful to you. It's harmful to me. 

Do you want to have a ministry to the LGBTQ community? I do, too. But in my ministry, when you minister well to the LGBTQ community, there is no LGBTQ community, because people are victorious over their sin. God liberates the captives. Born again Christians are liberated now. 

Do we struggle with sin? Of course we do. But do we struggle in a way that renders us unable to be biblically married or have children thrive? No. If you believe that God doesn't change people, if you believe that sanctification doesn't equip you to subdue your sin and live to righteousness, then you don't believe the gospel. 

And so in some ways, the twin efforts of the Reformation were always tearing down idols and proclaiming the Word of God. You didn't go up to the mountain where babies were being thrown in and sing Kumbaya. You just don't do that. You have to destroy the idol before you can proclaim the Word of God. 

Now, I'm not recommending taking baseball bats to things. I'm taking words and ideas and scholarship to things. I know that we do live in a postmodern world where people will say things. But I identify as a conservative Christian. But if you're not using truth to dispel lies, then you're not acting like one. 

So no, I cannot look into anybody's heart, but I can read their words. I can also read the times. If I say something, something directed at a college convocation and then the next thing that happens is all of a sudden websites are being scrubbed. I mean, I don't know. Usually we do. Cleaning in the spring that's helping people to correct their mistakes. I don't expect a thank you card or a Christmas card. But I don't expect you to lie about it, because I know what's going on. So grownups who name names are kind.

Dannah: Yeah, I love that. I think it is important that we're kind. I think one of the important things you said today is that you are extending hospitality to the people you're disagreeing with. I wish that we could just get some of these names that you've named into a room and talk and hash it out. I don't know if that's going to happen. But we do need to hash it out—heart by heart, family by family, church by church, because the gospel of Jesus is at stake. As image bearers of God as Genesis 1 tells us, we have to embrace the roles of maleness and femaleness so that we can maintain that image bearing quality of God.

One last question, and that is, talk with me just practically. There's a woman listening who has a family member who's struggling with homosexuality, or a woman in her church who has just come to her and said, “I think I'm bisexual.” Or maybe a teenager, as you said, never had any symptom whatsoever of gender confusion, but now she's fifteen years old in the youth group saying, “I think I might be a boy.” 

What is the first thing you do when someone like that comes to you? Give us a first step.

Rosaria: Well, the first step is you want to be a good listener. But you want to be a good listener who's a grown up. Again, we need Titus 2 women, not teenagers. No offense to the teenage listeners, but we need the moms and the grandmas to enter the room as grownups. We need to extend sympathy, not empathy. There's a big important difference. 

There's a time for empathy, this is it. You're not going to sit down and identify and try to explain or try to stand in their shoes. No, you want to actually solve the problem. 

In order to do that, you need to find out what is the problem for this person's homosexuality or homosexual desires. Is it a consequence of trauma and abuse? Then get counseling for trauma and abuse. It's symptomatic, then. I mean, you can still be a sinner and a victim, but deal with first things first.

Is the fifteen-year-old girl identifying as a boy because in her government school she is being told that in order to be a kind person and not a bigot, she needs to empathize with what it means to be a boy. 

Well, my strong recommendation is that you disenroll her. Be mindful of the fact that in 2023, and actually ever since 2021, there has been a Biden administration federal mandate in all public schools to promote gender ideology as part of an anti-bullying legislation from which you can't exempt your child. So, deal with the problem. There are actual problems. 

We do have false teachers in the church. I will tell you, just so you know, in my denomination ten years ago, we all hashed it out. We all went our separate ways, and so now we're going to bear the fruit of that. 

Now when I say false teachers, I'm not talking reprobates. These aren't dead people. These are living people, living people can actually repent of sin. The book starts out with my repentance of sin. Do you realize I believed all of these lies, every single one of them, and promoted them, and not just as an unbeliever. So in repentance, there is hope.

But in falsifying the gospel, there is confusion. And so, find out what the source is for this person and try to help. She doesn't need you to jump in the mud with her and drown. She needs you to stand on solid ground and throw her a rope. That's the gospel. 

In Jesus there is hope for every breathing person on planet earth. The Lord is tender and merciful. He says that His yoke is easy, and His burden is light. He wants to meet people and save them. But we cannot bring our false Jesuses into the picture. We need the real reigning king who was born as a baby. We need to see the humility and the victory of Christ and stand in that.

Dannah: Amen. Oh, Rosaria, I could talk with you all day. 

I know my Grounded sisters are all leaning in, and they could listen all day. But instead, I'm gonna have to invite them to buy your book, Five Lies of Our Anti-Christian Age. It's available anywhere books are sold. Rosaria thank you so much for being with us today. And I want to encourage you to keep being bold. 

Rosaria: Dannah, I just love every time we talk. I love that we got to. We had so many hours this week, what a blessing. 

Dannah: Yeah, so it was my pleasure, my blessing.

Rosaria: Prayers of thanksgiving for all of you at Revive Our Hearts. Thank you.

Dannah: Thank you. Well, Erin's gonna get us grounded in God's Word next, but stick around because Erin and I spent a week, I guess it was, I think back in March, in front of cameras—a whole week of hair and makeup and cameras. We with the help of our talented Grounded camera and storytelling team were creating a very intimate behind-the-scenes look into some of the most painful parts of our lives, and the woman who walked us through them. We're gonna give you a first peek at that footage today. 

But before we finish our time today on Grounded, Erin, would you get us grounded in God's Word?

46:27 - Grounded in God's Word (with Erin)

Erin: Ooh, that interview kind of took my breath away, in the best way. We're so much to absorb and to think about, and I know our Grounded sisters are reacting the same. But I am going to get us grounded in God's Word and keep us grounded in God's Word. Of course, Rosaria was pointing us to God's Word 

Do you want to know where we're heading? We're going to be in Second Timothy 3. I'm going to read us verses one through five. 

While you're flipping there, I want to tell you a quick story. I was teaching in Canada several weeks ago, and Canada is where we will soon be here in the States. They are definitely post-Christian.

I was teaching out of the book of First Thessalonians about the return of Christ. A sweet young woman found me after that. I could tell she was timid; she felt uncomfortable. She said, “Can I be honest?”

And I said, “Always.” 

She said, “What if I don't really want Jesus to come back.” 

And thus began a dialogue about what I think a lot of Christians feel, which is that we prefer to stay in our comfort zone. We know that according to God's Word, the culture is going to run headlong away from Jesus, not toward him in the last days. 

We're seeing the fulfillment of everything He promised us. He never tricked us. He told us that we would be hated as He was hated. 

And some of us are just like,”Man, we were not sure we wanted that, even if it does mean Jesus's return is imminent,” and I believe it is. And so if that's you, if this makes you feel uncomfortable, if you would just prefer to continue to think of the Church as the home team, stick with us because there's always hope. 

Now, I'll shift gears a little bit. I said this at the top of the episode, but I'll say it again. If you, if I were to choose a word of the year for the Grounded sisterhood in 2024, I’d choose steadfast for us. Now, you won't be steadfast in your own strength. You can't do it just out of pure resolve. You can't white-knuckle your way into faithfulness to Jesus. But you can do it grounded. 

That's why we call it Grounded, planted, rooted in Jesus, His gospel, and His Word. I want you to see if this sounds a little like our post-Christian age as you're thinking about that steadfastness. So again, I'm in second Timothy 3:1–5,

But understand this, that in the last days there will come times of difficulty. For people will be lovers of self, lovers of money, proud, arrogant, abusive, disobedient to their parents, ungrateful, unholy, heartless, unappeasable, slanderous, without self-control, brutal, not loving good, treacherous, reckless, swollen with conceit, lovers of pleasure rather than lovers of God, having the appearance of godliness, but denying its power. 

And then Paul wrote to young Timothy, “Avoid these people.” 

That's what Rosaria was saying. She was saying avoid these people, hard times—check—lovers of self and money—double check—resistance to authority, it is everywhere in our culture right now to resist every form of authority. And Paul also said without love.

I’ve got a lot to say there, and maybe we'll do a whole episode about it. But the Greek word for that, as mentioned, there is the word esteros. There you go. You can see how poor my Greek pronunciation is, but it means “without family love.” 

Have you heard of no contact? Have you experienced no contact? I want to say it's a new trend. It's actually probably a tale as old as time, but it is an increasing trend. And it's this: people cut off their family members who don't think like they think. And the message under the message is: you get to choose your family, and you should choose those people who agree with you. 

Well, Paul described that centuries ago, in his letter to Timothy, as one of the signs of the times. Rosaria said she can read the times. My question for you sister is, can you? 

There is some comfort in knowing that what we are experiencing is not new. It's a good reminder that God didn't leave us here so that we could fight culture wars. We don't have to get sucked in. But what Paul wrote next does hit a little closer to home. 

I'm going to pick it up at verse 6 and read us, verses 6–7. 

For among them are those who creep into households and capture weak women, burdened with sins and led astray by various passions, always learning and never able to arrive at a knowledge of the truth.

Sisters, is there ever been a passage that more accurately describes women in this age and Christian women in this age at times? 

What is Paul's definition of a weak woman? It's right there. Paul is a straight shooter, which might be why I like him so much. I’m a straight shooter myself. But when Paul described weak women, he said she's burdened with sin. She's not walking in freedom. 

And what we do here at Revive Our Hearts is we call you to live in the freedom and fullness and fruitfulness available in Christ. We believe you can walk in freedom.

She's led astray by various passions. We need to be most careful in one area of our identity, which is that our passions are our identifier. We have a passion to matter. We have a passion to do what we love. We have a passion of following. Be watchful, sisters. Paul identifies that living for passion is an indicator that you are a weak woman. He said that weak women are always learning but never able to quite arrive to a knowledge of the truth. 

We have more books than ever. We have more podcasts than ever. Anybody can start a podcast and declare themselves an expert. We have more self-help programs than anybody, any time. You can declare yourself a coach in any area, and you can charge people, and you can coach them into whatever it is you claim to be a coach on. 

Even Grounded, you can watch it every week. If you don't have any more fortitude than when you started watching Grounded, something is wrong. Now, I know we won't all know God's truth this side of glory, and we won't walk out our faith perfectly. 

But there should be fruit. There should be growing in the truth. It shouldn't be just that we're absorbing information, information, information, information and not arriving at the truth. We should actually as we grow in godliness and in His Word start to feel the earth steadying underneath our feet. Because we are building our lives on the solid rock of God's Word. 

Sisters, we are not victims of a godless culture. We have everything we need for life and godliness—Scripture. It promises us that, and it's true. As we pointed out multiple times in this episode, Christianity was born in a hostile world. 

Actually, true faith in Jesus has never truly been culturally accepted. Living a radical life for Jesus has always been oppressed. 

But let us not be weak women. How do we be strong women? It's in the reverse of the description Paul gave us there in Second Timothy. We don't live lives filled with sin, we repent. Rosaria called us to repent. We confess. We don't follow our passions. Following your heart is the surest way to drive your life into the ditch.

This is your guide, God's Word. There is truth, and you can know it. You can live it out. You're gonna have to ground your life in God's Word for that to be the case. You know what I think this moment in history is? I think in many ways I was built for this moment, and you were to this. It is a profound opportunity. 

We get to be Christ's ambassadors in this moment. Now, many will go astray. Many will believe the lies that Rosaria warned us about, but you don't have to. Part of what we do here on Grounded is we look each other in the eye. I mean, I can't see you. But I know you're looking at me, and I'm looking at you. You and I are taking each other's faces in our hands—metaphorically. 

Week after week we're saying to each other, “Hey, sister, truth has a name. His name is Jesus. And truth has a map. It's God's word.” We know how to find our way back to Jesus week after week, because he's given us His Word. 

I'll let Paul have the final word here. It comes from 2 Timothy 3:12–14. And here it is:

Indeed, all who desire to live a godly life in Christ Jesus will be persecuted, while evil people and impostors will go on from bad to worse, deceiving and being deceived. [But oh man, when there's a bug in Scripture, you know, the good stuff is about to come. Here it is.]But as for you, continue in what you have learned and have firmly believed, knowing from whom you learned it. 

You know what Paul was saying in one word? Onward. Keep going on the path that Jesus has given us. I'm going to turn it over to Dannah, and she's going to set us up for that video that she mentioned. We're so excited for you to see this. This is a really important project data.

Dannah: Erin that was one of these kinds of teachings. I’m gonna snap a little and praise the Lord because how we need to hear truth. And I want to say again, “Truth has a name. His name is Jesus. Truth has a map. It's God's Word.” Friends, we have got to get our maps out. Yes, when we do, we're gonna realize we're headed in the wrong direction. 

Erin: Yeah, wrong train. I'm not staying on that train. 

Okay, as we did promise, we have something special for you. We're about to show it to you. 

Dannah: This spring, the Grounded team took a road trip to Erin's home town. We wanted to film a very special season of her teaching podcast The Deep Well. It was our desire to capture the heart and life of a woman named Tippy Duncan who has mentored Erin and me for decades. She's walked us both through some of our darkest trials.

I think this episode, this season of The Deep Well is going to be a very intimate, transparent, behind-the-scenes exposition of what mentoring really should look like in our lives. 

This season of The Deep Well drops January 4. It has videos. We know the next couple of weeks are going to be full for all of us. So, we wanted to make sure you're among the first to know about this very special nine-month-long project that we're eager to show you. I hope you'll be blessed. Check out this short trailer. 

Video

Erin: You’re eighty. You and your husband ride a motorcycle. 

Tippy Duncan: It's a trike. 

Erin: But what is a trike?

She's just a woman hidden in the church. Her name isn’t on a book. She's not got a ministry under her name, but you've made a tremendous impact . . . just by being faithful.

Tippy: Oh, precious Jesus. We lift up all Christian marriages.

Bob: I put Dannah through hell. I use that phrase because I know no other word to describe the depth of pain that I brought into our marriage.

Erin: I looked at you and said, “Are you going to stay?”

Dannah: There's one thing that Tippyi taught me to do. I would not be sitting here a married woman if I hadn't done it, I think.

Erin: People think of dementia as being forgetful, and that's been part of it.

Tippy: It's been more than that.

Erin: It's been so much more than that.

Tippy: I love you. 

Erin: I love you too. 

Tippy: I don't think she knows my name anymore.

Dannah: Does your mom know who you are?

Tippy: Nobody wants to be a burden.

Erin: Do you ever want to pray for the Lord to heal you? 

Dannah: I know you believe the Lord. 

Tippy: I don't want to wait to say it.

Erin: So, I hope that women who watch this and listen to this will get a vision for their own lives, that they don't have to do something huge. They don't have to have their name on anything. They just need to be faithful to Jesus, and it'll add up.

Dannah: I can't seem to get through that without choking up. We're excited to share this little piece of our lives with you, friends. 

Here at Revive Our Hearts, we are able to produce nine-month-long video projects like that, that I think will be game-changing in your heart, this season of The Deep Well with Erin Davis. We're able to bring you truth-telling episodes like Grounded with me and Erin and Portia, and we're able to bring you podcasts. We're putting podcasts out through the entire world, to women in countries like the country, the countries that Erin described at the beginning of the program, countries where they would not have the gospel, they would not have biblical training and biblical truth, except that women are sharing things that were created here in the United States and then translated into their language. They're sharing it through things like WhatsApp, these apps on their phones, because they can't even listen to it in the free airwaves the way that you and I do. 

And we do that because of friends like you. We don't sell Grounded passes; we don't sell Grounded annual login codes. We have a culture of generosity here at Revive Our Hearts. But we do have this practical thing called bills to pay.

And we do that through your culture of generosity through friends like you who pray for us and ask God to give us wisdom and protection and provision. We do that through friends like you who give.

So, did you know that almost half of our donations, our annual income, comes to us in the month of December? I mean, that's crazy. But it's true. Imagine if someone said to you, “Do all the work all year long, and I'll pay you 50% of what I owe you for your hard work. But in December, I'm gonna get caught up. 

That's what happens to us. It's not in terms of our literal paychecks, but in terms of our fundraising, 43% of what we raise comes in December. I gotta tell you that sometimes has us, you know, sitting on the edge of our seats. 

So here we are, December is upon us. We'd love to hear from you. Our goal this year is we have a need to raise $4.2 million. But here's some really good news. We've essentially already raised $2.1 million in pledges from some friends of the ministry who have offered to match your gift dollar for dollar. You make a donation of $10, and we get $20 because these other people will match it. You make a donation of $100. We get $200, if you make a donation here in the month of December.

Erin: Those were all happy things you were saying Dannah, but I'm having a hard time pulling the nose of the plane up from that video. If you didn't catch on, that was my sweet mama in the wheelchair. I'm eager for you to meet her through that project. But I do want to celebrate what God is doing through the ministry. So excuse me if my eyes don't match my words. 

I don't have an exact update on where we are. I just looked on our way and our progress bar said 17%. I imagine that's not quite up to date. Oh, good. You got it. Give it to us.

Dannah: Well, we're, we're roughly 20% of the way to $2.1 million. Okay. So, I don't think that's unusual. I think it's a little behind pace of where we normally are this year. I think what's happening is some people aren't able to give. We need some people who do have the ability to give a little bit more generously this year to get us back on track so that we can meet, reach that goal by December 31.

Erin: Well, and a big percentage of that comes in, in the final days of December, as people kind of think they’re past Christmas and start thinking about year-end giving.

But we're grateful if you've given. Thank you for the update. That's news to me. 20% of $2.1 million is a lot, and we totally trust that God is going to give us what we need. But if we don't ask, how can you know what the need is? We do want you to be aware that we're a donor funded ministry and we'd love to have your partnership in this way. 

Dannah: If you appreciate what you hear week in and week out on Grounded, would you please consider making a one-time tax deductible donation to Revive Our Hearts? Just tell them Erin and Dannah asked you to contribute on behalf of Grounded. You can give a gift by visiting ReviveOurHearts.com, and click where you see the word donate. Erin, do you know the number? I have the number memorized.

Erin: I know, but you say the number so beautifully—1-800-569-5959.

Dannah: I say that every day on the flagship program, at least twice. It is effortless. It's beautiful. Yeah, let us know that you like to be a part of keeping Grounded ministering to women globally. As we help the greater vision of Revive Our Hearts of calling women to freedom, fullness, and fruitfulness in Christ all over the world. Grounded is really a mere drop in the bucket of that mission.

Erin: Dannah, can I be your understudy? Can I try and say the number once? Kind of give it a shot?

Dannah: You have to say it again, that number is . . .

Erin: Okay. Good. Thanks for setting me up again. That number is 1-800-569-5959.

How’d I do? I don't know. 

Dannah: I think I might be out of a job. 

Erin: No, never, never, never. I want to pull up some comments because we were a little slow engaging. But we are getting some interest area. 

Dannah: Rosaria has that effect on people. 

Erin: Oh man. I totally. But yeah, you guys are just responding like we hoped you would. “Very powerful message,” Kathy said, “Thank you to Rosaria.” She also said, “Dannah, you look so cute and Christmassy today.” I love that about the sisterhood. We talk about the deep stuff; they complement each other's hair and clothes. That's the way things ought to be.

Dannah: I love that we can do that and also go deep at the same time. So glitters and Christmas trees. But then this comment from one of the women who said, “My sons accepts and embraces the idea of homosexuality, and one is in a homosexual relationship. But my heart is broken.” Heart emoji.

Erin: Yeah, that's not an easy Christmas to face. 

Dannah: This matters. This topic matters. Every conversation you have with someone about it matters. We are in a word war. Use your words kindly; use them with wisdom, but do not back away from the truth, sisters. 

Erin: Yeah, whatever else, speak the truth in love means speak the truth. And so we want to continue to do that here on Grounded until the Lord comes back for us. 

So next Monday, it's Christmas morning. We pre-recorded it guys. We're gonna stay in our jammies. We're gonna be with our families. But it's a great episode. It's already in the can. 

Kristen Getty is the guest, and she's sharing why we need Christmas music Christmas morning and year round. And somebody makes a surprise appearance in that episode. You have to watch it to find out. You don't have to watch it Christmas day but of course you can, but it'll be in the archives for you. So, let's wake up with hope together Christmas morning here on Grounded.

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