Loving Someone Who Leaves the Faith, with Alisa Childers

Has someone you loved walked away from the faith? Find hope and perspective as you navigate difficult conversations surrounding topics such as deconstruction, toxic spirituality, exvangelicalism, and more. Guest Alisa Childers joins the Grounded team to get to the core of the issue to help you reach the hearts of those you love.

Connect with Alisa

Instagram: @alisachilders/ 
Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/alisachilders
Website: https://alisachilders.com/ 

Episode Notes

• The Deconstruction of Christianity book by Alisa Childers.
• “Wisely Responding to the Deconstruction Movement, with Alisa Childers” episode.
• “Live the Christian Life with Courage, with Rosaria Butterfield” episode.
• “Where Is God When You Need Him?, with Susie Larson” episode.

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Dannah Gresh: Has someone you love walked away from the faith? If so, I'm guessing you need some hope and perspective today. So, we brought in just the right guest to help you. I'm Dannah Gresh. Welcome to Grounded.

Erin Davis: I'm Erin Davis. Hey, Dannah, “Good morning to those skidding in who want to be reminded of the importance of being grounded in God's Word.” That's a Monday morning word if ever I heard one, “skidding in this morning.” We're glad you're here. The guest that Dannah mentioned is Alisa Childers. She's been on Grounded before, though. It's been a few years. And let me say this, if you don't know her, she is a brilliant thinker.

Dannah: Understatement.

Erin: I don't know how to say it bigger. But you're right. Unlike a lot of conversations on this topic of people walking away from their faith in Jesus, she's going to leave us encouraged, not discouraged. And, she's going to leave us equipped, because she's done a ton of research. She's prayerful. She knows the Word, and she's going to help us get to the heart of the issues so that we know how to reach the hearts of those we love that may be walking away.

Dannah: Yeah, I can't think of many authors that I'm more grateful for than Alisa. Her books have been such an anchor for me as I navigate through how to talk to teens, how to talk to tweens about some of these really hairy issues of deconstructing and understanding the faith. 

Erin: Yeah, in fact, I'd love to just take a minute and get a scope of this issue right now. If you're watching us live, you could drop us a comment. If you love someone who's walked away from Jesus, let us know. Because we know that this is more than an individual. It's become a movement. Alisa is going to unpack some of that for us. But I wonder if you've heard this phrase, “radical spiritual makeover.”

Dannah: Yep.

Erin: It's not the kind of makeover that you want. It's not the guy to make over you that you want someone you love to have. Now, I think it is a good descriptor. We're intentionally not using the word deconstruction a lot because it's been used a lot. It's a good word, not a bad word, but I think that idea of a radical spiritual makeover is a good descriptor for a spiritual shift that has been given that label that I'm sure you have heard: deconstruction.

Dannah: Yeah. There are some other buzzwords that you may have heard, like, “toxic spirituality.” 

Erin: Check. Heard it.

Dannah: Toxic is so overused. If somebody's using that to describe our faith, we need to slow down, pay attention, and hear how they're hearing us. Another buzzword is ex-vangelical. 105,000 posts on Instagram use that. You've heard about this: #exChristian. You know, there's nearly 700 million cumulative views when I looked at like 105,000 posts on Instagram, you know, kind of putting this message out there. And 700 million on Tik Tok. 

It made me think, Get your kids and grandkids off Tik Tok. That is a toxic place, that's probably not a safe place for them to be. Here's the thing about cultural shifts like this. How we talk about the issue shapes what we think about the issue and informs how we respond to those in the middle of the issue. 

So, there does seem to be a great falling away happening. We want to ask, “Is there really? And if so, why?” So we know what to do about it.

Erin: I'm gonna repeat something really good. You said how we talk about an issue shapes how we think about an issue. That comes straight from Scripture. Where this hits in the heart is not the headlines. We know that if someone you love has walked away from their faith in Jesus, and I am in that camp, maybe they've even cut you out of their lives. They've labeled your beliefs or you as these buzzwords: toxic, spiritually abusive. Sometimes the way to their heart is through the mind. And so, we want to take time to investigate the thinking of this spiritual makeover movement.

Dannah: Yeah. You know, this hits home for me, too. You just said, Erin, you love someone who's in this movement. I love someone dearly who's in this movement. If it hits our homes, I bet it's hitting yours, too.

Erin: Absolutely. And the young women that I have in my mind, if you were to ask me three years ago would they ever walk away from Jesus, I would have said no way. They are rock solid. They know the Word; they love the Lord. And so, it's been quite disorienting to me, because I didn't see the writing on the wall. So, it's hard for me to understand. 

This is a highly shareable episode. We want you to, at a minimum, hit that share button right now as you're hearing the sound of my voice. But I think you can do more than that. Send it out to the people you know. Send it out to the people in your church, because we need to be equipped to have these important conversations. We do have a responsibility as the Church. We ought not just throw up our hands and go, “Oh, no! This is happening and there's nothing we can do about it.” You need to be equipped to do that. 

So go ahead, share it in whatever way makes sense to you, and grab your Bible. We're always going to point you to God's Word. Dannah is going to take us to Galatians chapter 6, so you can go ahead and put your Bible ribbon there. That's where we're heading. She's gonna show us why gentleness, yep, gentleness. I recognize that many of you listen to the podcast version rather than watching the video, but go find the episode notes. If you're hearing me say that, because you're gonna want to see their faces. And you're going to want to hear how they're doing. They're going to let you know how you can continue to pray for them. 

But first, we need good news. And Portia is just the girl to do it. So of course, you got some good news for us this morning.

16:37 - Good News (with Portia)

Portia Collins: Always, always always, always. Okay, I know I'm a couple days early but Happy Valentine's Day, sisters. Our good news today is even better than a good box of chocolates, or perhaps a nice new blinging ring. 

Check this out a couple of weeks ago. Some miners in Belize split a rock open and found the most amazing surprise. Check it out. Look at this. All right, a heart shape geode that was filled with amethyst crystals. Which is crazy. If you know anything about amethyst. That is the stone that most people whose birthdays are in February. Like my mom wears an amethyst stone. So it was filled with these amethyst crystals, a heart shaped geode. It was embedded inside this 150-pound rock. 

The miners said that it was literally a once in a lifetime fine. I think that is so cool. Now listen, y'all know I'm not an outside girl. So, I may not get as excited about rocks as Erin and Dannah, but let me deliver some really good news that's even better than rocks, chocolates, and all the other things. 

Listen to this, “Who can separate us from the love of Christ? Can affliction or distress or persecution or famine or nakedness or danger or sword? As it is written, because of you we are being put to death all day long. We are counted as sheep to be slaughtered. Know in all the things we are more than conquerors through him who loved us. For I am persuaded that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor rulers, nor things present, nor things to come, nor powers, nor height nor depth, nor any other created thing will be able to separate us from the love of God that is in Christ Jesus our Lord.” 

Don't you know you are so loved, sisters? And guess what? That's pretty good news.

Erin: That is good news. And you're right, I do get excited about rocks and that heart shaped geode is pretty awesome.

Portia: I really thought heart shaped with amethyst, which is the stone that’s associated with the month of February. That is like crazy. 

Erin: The Lord is in the details. And He is always trying to show us how much He loves us. So, thanks for pointing us to His love there from the book of Romans.

20:11 - Grounded with God's People (Alisa Childers)

All right, it's time to get grounded with God's people. Alisa Childers is with us. She is, I believe, a voice God is raising up in our day as a defender of the faith. She's a modern-day apologist who is equal parts critical thinking and heart. Her podcast, the Alisa Childers Podcast, has been formative for me. Dannah said her books have been formative for her as I've watched some people that I love dearly walk away from their Christian faith. So welcome back to Grounded Alisa. We're so glad to have you.

Alisa Childer: It's so great to be back with you. Thanks.

Erin: Okay. You've been very open about the fact that you underwent your own spiritual makeover several years ago. Can you give us the quick version of that moment in your own walk with Jesus? 

Alisa: Yes, several years ago, over ten years ago, in fact, I was attending a church where the pastor had already deconstructed his own faith, although I didn't know that at the time. He invited me to be a part of a small group study. During my time in that class, every core belief that I had just clung to my whole life about Jesus and God and the Bible, were picked apart. They were explained away; they were deconstructed. 

And so, this propelled me into a faith crisis that really brought me to the edge of not knowing if God existed at all. It was agonizing. It was years long, I cried out to God one night. I said, “God, if You're real, I need information.” And so, God in His faithfulness led me to study things like philosophy, Church history, science and faith, you name it, whatever I could get my hands on, that would give me some reasons to know what I believe is true. I just would consume that content. 

And so, over the course of several years, the Lord rebuilt my faith. I used to call what I went through deconstruction, because that's what I thought had happened to me, until I studied deconstruction. And then I said, “No, actually, I really was seeking after truth. I wanted to know what was real, whether I liked it or not, whether it resonated with me or not. And actually, I came to change my mind. And I don't use the word deconstruction to describe what I went through anymore. And that's because I think it's this completely other thing.

Erin: Yeah, that's really helpful. We're gonna drop a link to that episode, because it's part of this conversation. You really encouraged us not to be fearful when somebody's asking questions, because they can come out on the other side with a faith in Jesus. 

But ten years ago, you had that experience. What's different culturally from what you went through a decade ago? And what's happening right now?

Alisa: Right, well, now we see this explosion. In the book, that's what we call it, because it is a movement, but it's sort of like an explosion. The deconstruction movement is not organized. It's not like you can really wrap your finger, your hands around what it is. But as my co-author and I were researching the movement, what we discovered is that what we see in the deconstruction hashtag, which is primarily where this movement is taking place, are people that are reforming their spiritual beliefs, but they're not using Scripture as a standard. 

In fact, they're not even using absolute truth as a standard. It's a very self-led process. It's people who are saying, “Look, I feel harmed by these doctrines. I feel like this is not making me thrive in my life. So, I'm gonna get rid of this ‘toxic theology.’” And so really, what they're walking away from is historic Christian beliefs surrounding the gospel. And in the deconstruction movement, it doesn't matter where you land, you can land as a progressive Christian, you can land as an atheist, you can land as a secular humanist, or New Age, or it doesn't matter, as long as you leave what they consider to be toxic theology.

Erin: That's so important. I've definitely heard all of those phrases. I'm never quite sure what they mean. I'm not sure anybody knows what they mean, but they're being used quite often. 

During the opener, I remembered something from way back in my college days, which has been a minute, let me tell you. It was the hypothesis that language precedes thought. And I wondered, are we throwing fuel on this fire by talking about it so much? What are your thoughts on just the fact that we've given it a label and so many of us are wrestling through it in such a public way? What are the pros and cons of that? 

Alisa: Well, I think it is important, we talked about it, because this movement, as you mentioned, in the opening. I mean, the ex-vangelical hashtag has been used millions of times, the deconstruction hashtag has been used millions of times. By the way, I could not agree more, get your kids off TikTok, because this type of a movement does not exist without social media as we know it. And by the way, I am not saying that we should isolate our kids and not let them be exposed to bad ideas. I tell moms all the time, pull a TikTok video from a deconstructionist. Show it to your kids, teach them how to think critically about that, but in the safety of your home. 

But these hashtags, they operate almost like propaganda. It's almost like conspiracy theories for progressives, because there's so much misinformation in there. There's demonstrably false claims being made about Christianity, and if someone doesn't know how to think critically, and they're looking for a reason to walk away from having to surrender and bow their knee to Christ in all areas of their life, whether it be sexuality or whatever it might be. That can be very tempting, and I think it can be very persuasive. 

So, I think it is important for the Church to talk about it, because so many of our friends and loved ones are being sucked into it. That's, honestly, why we wrote this book. This is not the book you're gonna give to the person in your life who is deconstructing. This is the book you're gonna give to their moms and their dads and their pastors and brothers and sisters and spouses. That's who we wrote this book for.

Erin: Yeah, that's a really important point. And listen, these hashtag movements have a lot of power. This isn't the only one we've seen now. I think of #me too. I think of #churchtoo. Sometimes some good truth comes out in those movements. But a lot of times it is, as you said, a lot of hypercharged rhetoric, a lot of which isn't proved to be true at all. Can you help us identify some of the catalysts? What were the big the mini-bursts inside that explosion that brought us to this point in Church history?

Alisa: I think COVID have a lot to do with it. Because people were now at home with time on their hands to really think. People weren't necessarily going to work every day. So, I think there was more time to think about things. We saw a real kind of flood of Christian celebrities around that time that posted their deconstruction stories. I think catalysts being a lot of different things. 

In the book, we talk about different types of triggers or crises that could propel somebody into a type of deconstruction. Spiritual abuse could be one of those things. Witnessing hypocrisy in church could be another. Maybe just dealing with the Bible for the first time and maybe not realizing that some of the things that happened in the Old Testament. Those are things we have to wrestle with and the way God is portrayed. People have found all sorts of problems with that. 

But I would be remiss if I didn't mention the political element in the deconstruction hashtag whether it's perceived or real, there is no getting around the fact that the Church's support of Donald Trump has had a huge effect on people, basically, taking everything about the faith, balling it up, and throwing it away. 

In fact, virtually every deconstruction story that will be mentioned, there's the perceived or real unholy political alliances, there's spiritual abuse. And frankly, I have a lot of compassion for that. I've talked with people who have been through horrific spiritual abuse experiences, and they don't feel safe in church. I have so much compassion for that, because I've been through spiritual abuse. I know what it feels like to walk into church feeling very unsafe, and very, like, “I don't trust any of you people.” I get that. 

But the sad thing to me, the thing that just absolutely breaks my heart is that people are throwing away the gospel along with some of those other things. That's why I think the Church needs to talk about it.

Erin: Yeah, I mean, you told us when you were with us before that a huge underlying factor in the deconstruction stories that you've heard, a lot of which is legitimate, which makes me kind of shake in my boots, is how our actions as followers of Jesus can have ripple effects that we don't know or can't perceive. So, I'm glad you call those things out. 

Many of us, me included, have been shocked by people we know choosing to walk away from their faith in Jesus, often very publicly. Can you help us see past the rhetoric and get to the heart of it. I would never want to walk away from Jesus. What is appealing about this deconstruction path, at a heart level, you think?

Alisa: Well, I think it's ultimately if you have that trigger of some kind of a crisis, what the deconstruction movement is going to give you is permission to follow your own heart. Then you don't have to surrender. I mean, let's face it, being a Christian is hard, sometimes. In fact, Jesus promised, “If you follow me, the world will hate you.” Paul said that if we follow Christ, we will be persecuted. That doesn't always feel good. It doesn't always feel good to have to surrender our sexual urges or surrender who we think our core identity is. That's another big factor, I think, in culture. We have been persuaded as a culture that what we feel is our core identity. You can trace that to Freud. He made your core sexuality, your core identity, and our culture has bought into that. 

And so a lot of people if they want to maybe live out some of that stuff, they have all of these people online saying, “Yes, the church is toxic. Push that down. It's toxic; turn away from that. You should embrace that and live it out.” Well, you know, they're ripe for deconstruction in that case, because they have a whole community of people waiting for them online to cheer them on in that and say, “Yeah, the Bible is trying to keep you down. The Church is trying to protect their power. They're just trying to keep you in the fold.” 

That's why you'll hear all over the place in the Tik Tok space of deconstruction claims like this: the Church just invented the doctrine of hell to control people with fear. So, the assumption is that when Christians make claims about objective truth, absolute truth and reality, it's just a power grab. That's how it's perceived in the deconstruction movement.

Erin: Oh, man, that was so wise. The cultural message is what you feel is your identity. What makes me so sad is they are peddling that as the path to freedom. And what we know as believers that is absolutely the path to bondage. You're not going to find freedom living your life for yourself. That's so, so heartbreaking. Okay, give us some do's and don'ts for how the Church can and should respond?

Alisa: This is the most important question and this is the question that I am asked every single time I go and speak at a conference. People are saying, “How do I walk with my loved one who is in deconstruction?” So, I think the first thing . . . and we have a whole chapter on this in the book, by the way, where we go deep into different relationship dynamics and all of that. 

Erin: Good. 

Alisa: But broadly speaking, I think the most important thing you can do is understand the nature of what your loved one is going through. Now, granted, people define the word deconstruction in all sorts of different ways. If somebody in your life says I'm deconstructing, definitely ask them what they mean by that, because they might just mean they have doubts, or they're questioning whether or not the Word of God can be trusted. Or maybe they're asking really hard questions about their faith. We would say, “Yes, do that definitely test all things hold fast to what is good.” We should encourage that process. 

If that's what they're doing, they're really seeking truth, and they've got their Bible in their hand, then to just point them to Scripture and help in more of a discipleship space with that. 

But if they're deconstructing the way we're defining it in the book, they're probably not talking to you about it, because they've already decided that you are an unsafe person, and that you are a harmful person. You really need to understand that because you're not going to be able to just take them to coffee and fix their theology. That is not what's going on. They know your theology. They grew up in your churches, in your homes. 

And so, what we tell Christians is very counterintuitive. But if that's the situation, we say you have permission to back off and just try to stay in their life, try to maintain the relationship first, because it's kind of like triage. You know, when there's an accident on the freeway and people start coming into the ER, the doctors have to assess what's the most urgent need. So, the guy with the punctured lung is going to get treated before the person with the sprained wrist. 

So assess what's the most urgent need. It might just be trying to maintain that relationship. In the meantime, you can live the beauty of the gospel out in front of them, you can let them see the peace and joy that you have in Jesus. Don't compromise your own beliefs. Try to maintain that relationship and pray. Do not underestimate the power of prayer. You can take all of that time and energy and pour it into prayer for your loved one. 

But again, that is going to be different pertaining to different relationship dynamics. If it's your teenager who is deconstructing, I would say a social media blackout. You still have power and control, and they are definitely being influenced by something on the outside if your teenager is deconstructing in this way. 

Now if they've heard the word and it's kind of trendy and they think it means something else, like reforming your faith to Scripture, great. Tell them to do that. But maybe encourage them to use a different word, like reformation, or I've heard the word disentangling bad beliefs from good ones. But yeah, if they're really deconstructing, just try to stay in their life and live the peace of Jesus out in front of them.

Erin: So helpful. So practical. You touched on something that is a hard part of this, which is, many deconstructionists do cut out all truth speaking voices very sternly in the name of boundaries. It can feel like now I have no influence in their life at all. But you gave us two powerful weapons: prayer and your own walk with Jesus, which are actually incredibly powerful. So, I'm so glad you gave us that hope. 

Okay, I'm not an apologist like you. I know what I believe, but I might struggle if conversation started to feel like a debate. Can you give us some tools for how to respond when we don't know the answers?

Alisa: Yeah. I love this question. I always tell people that you do not have to be an apologist, you don't have to be a scholar. You just have to be curious and be willing to walk in relationship with someone. We should not be afraid of any question that anyone asks us. 

If someone in your life asks you a hard question that you don't know the answer to, what a great opportunity to model humility and say, three words, “I don't know. What a great question. Let's go on a journey and discover that.” And so, what you can do is take some time. Just say, “You know what? I'd really love to research that a little bit. Can we get together in a couple of weeks, have some coffee, and talk more about it?” 

I think that is the best way to go about it. Because listen, there's so much to learn. I'll never know everything; you'll never know everything. But what we can do is engage the person and the question that's right in front of us. There are so many great resources out there for any question that somebody might bring up. So, go on a journey with the question and the person that's right in front of you.

Erin: That just happened to me last week. A friend texted me about something she was reading the Old Testament and God seemed to condone child sacrifice. And she said, “What in the world?” And I said, “I don't know. And I'll get back to you,” which are two very powerful tools in my arsenal. 

Now, I gotta be diligent. I need to do my homework. But I think she was asking a good and legitimate question, and I'm glad she asked it. And so, I think especially for the parents and it's our child that's deconstructing, we can maybe respond with more fear than is necessary. So, you just gave us some really beautiful permission slips there. 

Okay. Do you see our world as post-Christian in this moment? And if so, what does that mean for us as followers of Jesus?

Alisa: Yeah, our culture is certainly post-Christian. In fact, many people are calling it now a post-truth culture. And if you don't have the truth, you don't have Christianity, because Christianity makes claims about reality that are rooted in absolute truth. And so, I think that for evangelism, as Christians, as we live in this culture, we kind of need to back up a couple of steps and maybe even talk about the nature of truth with people. Because a lot of people, we preach the gospel to them. Your listeners have probably experienced this, and people are like, “Oh, that's really great for you. That's true for you. But what's true for me is true for me.” You're sitting there going, “What just happened? I just shared the gospel, and they're happy for me, but they don't think it applies to them.” That's because they don't think that that truth can be known when it comes to religion or morality. Therefore, the view of culture is to cobble together some beliefs that work for you. 

I'm sure our audience has had this experience on social media where somebody posts a Bible verse and you go, “Oh, they're a Christian.” And then the next day, it's like a Buddha quote. You're like, “Okay, I guess it's a good quote.” And the next day, it's crystals. The next day, it's some positive affirmations. Then the next day and you're like, “What is going on?” And that's because our culture is post-truth. It does not approach religion as if it's rooted in objective truth. So, you just find some things that work for you. 

We've got a lot of knots to untie in that realm. Because the apostle Paul said, “If Christ has not been raised, your faith is in vain and you're still in your sins.” In other words, if the resurrection of Jesus didn't happen as a real event, in reality, then Christianity is not true. You might as well just go out and find something that works for you. But if it is true, yeah, it's true for everybody, and it has eternal consequences for everybody. 

So, backing up and and just defining truth for people. Truth is what is real. It's what corresponds with reality. Religion isn't just like your favorite ice cream—you might like vanilla, I might like chocolate. That's fine. It would be weird for me to tell you that vanilla is the wrong answer. Because you'd be like, “Well, that's my opinion.” That's because our culture thinks religion is like ice cream; you pick a flavor.

Erin: Alisa, I think we can both agree that cookie dough ice cream is the right answer. 

Alisa: I would not disagree with that. 

Erin: Yeah, I had a moment post-COVID where I was talking to a pastor friend of mine. I said, “Why haven't our churches been flooded with people seeking truth,” because we saw all of our systems fail us. And he said something so profound. He said, “People don't believe that truth can be found.” And I was like, you're right, which means we totally have to change our approach to how we dialogue about us. That was really helpful. 

Hey, we promised people hope in perspective. Someone listening to this loves someone who has walked away from their faith. What hope do you have to pass along to them?

Alisa: Well, we end our whole book with hope. And you know, I think about Jesus when Jesus was crucified on Friday. Then there's Saturday; we're in the Saturday right now. So many of our loved ones have walked away. It feels uncertain; it feels agonizing. I've talked to parent after parent after parent who has told me they're just on their knees every single day for their adult children and grandchildren. I think that we're in the Saturday right now. This is sort of a new phenomenon. 

So, I have so much hope. I have so much hope. I think that we have pews filled with people who grew up in church. It's been kind of easy, maybe they haven't really trusted in Christ personally as their Savior, and they drift away, and maybe they deconstruct. I think we're going to see a lot of these people come back to the Lord. That's my hope. 

I think the Lord is using it to expose . . . It's actually His mercy to say, “Hey, you know, these people could have lived and died in churches thinking they're Christians. But in God's mercy, it's like He's shaken things up. You know, you're not a Christian when you walk away from it.” I believe that we're gonna see some people really hungry for truth at the end of this. I've been to the bottom of this rainbow of deconstruction, and there's no pot of gold down there. It's a very toxic, dark, bitter place, and people are going to be looking for meaning. 

I think Christians need to get ready. We need to get strong. I've seen more parents tell me that this has increased their prayer life, this has caused them to lean on the Lord like never before. So, God is strengthening the Church through this. That's my hope, that He's going to bring a lot of people back to Him. So, stay in prayer, stay in relationship. I think that's all we can do right now.

Erin: Make it so, Lord, I'm with you. I got goosebumps as you were saying that because God is a redeeming and rescuing God. That's our hope. He goes after the one all the time, and leaves the 99. So, thanks for giving us that hope. 

Thanks for being on Grounded.  I want to point our watchers and our listeners to your newest book, The Deconstruction of Christianity. We're going to drop a link to make it easy for you to find. Where else can people hear more from you because they're telling us in the chat right now that hey are now Alisa Childers’ fans because you bring so much to this. Where can they learn more from you?

Alisa: Well, thank you for that. I have a weekly podcast called TheAlisa Childers Podcast. We talk about these types of topic topics. Every week we go really deep, like an hour long. I interview experts on all sorts of things. I also have the Unshaken Faith Podcast, which is a weekly shorter 15 to 20 minutes with my friend Natasha Crane, where we tackle cultural topics. So definitely subscribe to both of those podcasts. But my other books are Another Gospel, and then I have one called Live Your Truth and Other Lies. Just search me. I'm on Instagram Facebook @AlisaChilders.

Erin: You and I have taken many walks together on my little farm. You probably didn't know that, but you're in my earbuds a lot. 

Alisa: Oh I love that. 

Erin: My oldest boys are sixteen and fouteen. So I'm very much aware of the world that they are growing up in, and I want to be equipped for it. I'm really, really grateful for your ministry, and thanks for being on our program this morning.

Alisa: It was such a joy. Thanks so much.

Erin: What a great conversation. The only thing to add to it would be God's Word. Dannah is going to get us grounded in that and tell us what gentleness has to do with all that. Dannah, were you taking furious notes? Was that rich or what?

Dannah: Well, you know, I'm an Alisa fan. I've heard her, and I've heard most of that again, and she stirs my heart. In fact, Erin Davis, I have a heart to rescue someone today . . . before they deconstruct. 

Erin: Let’s do it. 

42:09 - Grounded in God's Word (with Dannah)

Dannah: I want to back up in some of your stories and just sound an alarm. We’ve got a comment from a woman that just said, “My daughter discommunicated from us in January. That's how far she is along this process.” And so, if you don't have someone you love—a child, a grandchild—who's deconstructed yet, but you have someone who's struggling with sin, I want to suggest that they're at the most vulnerable place. They are at the crossroads of the wide path to hell or the narrow path to salvation. We are never more vulnerable than when we're caught in sin. 

And when we're caught in the snare of temptation, we desperately need someone to be like Jesus, and to chase after us, the lone lost sheep. 

But I want to tell you to be careful how you pursue them. Be careful how you pursue them. 

There's actually a warning in the Scripture about this that we're going to look at today. Many years ago when I was praying for someone who was caught in sin, God led me to Galatians 6:1. Open your Bibles if you have them there. I have this one well worn out and marked up in my Bible. It says, 

Brothers, if anyone is caught in any transgression, you who are spiritual should restore him in a spirit of gentleness. Keep watch on yourself, lest you too be tempted.

God's Spirit just drew me to this verse as critical instruction for me when I was near someone who is vulnerable to sin, so lean in if that's you. 

Now, Paul's words here don't indicate a hardened sinner. Instead, the idea is of someone who's fallen into sin. They find themselves trapped at a place they never thought they would be. 

You heard Erin Davis say that just a few moments ago, some of the friends she sees deconstructing, she would have never imagined in a million years that it could be possible of these young women. They're overtaken. They're overtaken by their doubt. They're overtaken by some moral habit. They're overtaken by their sin. 

So the words of the apostle here, don't speak of doctrinal faults and errors but of weakness in the flesh. What do we do with someone—a husband, a child, a mother, a father—who's caught in sin? 

Well, this verse says that we restore them. Now, I wondered exactly what that word “restore” meant when I was praying for the person I love. So, I studied it. The word “restore” here in the Greek language is really important. It's the verb, qatar stisei. It means “to put an order or to restore to its former condition.” It was used in secular Greek as a medical term for setting a fractured or dislocated bone. You get the picture. 

Much like a doctor would reset a bone, we’re called to reset those broken in the body of Christ, to put them right back in place where they belong. 

Now, how do we do that? This verse says, “with a spirit of gentleness,” not with judgment, not with severe discipline, but with gentleness. That's the invitation for you and I to restore gently, and beyond that, there's actually a warning. It says keep a watch on yourself lest you too be tempted. Tempted to do what? I think one option here might be that we could be tempted to succumb to the elder brother syndrome. You know, the prodigal son who returned to his father in full repentance, but was met with the disdain of the elder brother—the elder brother syndrome. 

This older son was far from the heart of his father. He just didn't look like it.

I want to warn you to be careful how you respond to those struggling to reconcile their faith with their flesh. Warren Wiersbe once wrote, “Nothing reveals the wickedness of legalism better than the way the legalists treat those who have sinned.” I want to submit this idea: the way we treat sinners does impact this issue of deconstructing. Just follow me for a minute to uncover why people are leaving Christianity, a Christian journalist went to those who he had known, the people leaving.

He gathered responses to a social media query with a large and diverse response. Now the number one reason that people are leaving the faith today, not surprisingly, is the LGBTQ issue. They don't understand or see the compassion in the Christian worldview and what the Bible teaches. That's something we need to be well versed in. We need to study the Word ourselves to understand it so that we're ready to answer those questions. But it was the number two answer they left the faith that broke my heart. It was the behavior of believers. 

These people felt disappointed and judged by believers. You heard Alisa mentioned that just a moment ago. She said, “Sometimes they see the hypocrisy of others in the Church, and they're disappointed by it.” 

Now, they also feel judged when they see that hypocrisy, and then they feel the fingers pointing at them for how they're approaching their questions and faith. They feel judged. I hardly think that's how Jesus made sinners feel. At least it's never how Jesus made me feel when I was sinful. Maybe that's why Galatians 6:1 is in there. So, we behave well when we see others falling in their faith. It matters, Friend. 

When writing a letter to C.S. Lewis about potentially converting to Christianity, an author Sheldon Vanauken, wrestled with this exact thing in his book, ASevere Mercy. He wrote, 

The best argument for Christianity is Christians—their joy, their certainty, their completeness. But the strongest argument against Christianity is also Christians. When they are somber and joyless, when they are self-righteous and smug and complacent, when they are narrower and repressive, then Christianity dies a thousand deaths.

It was a long time ago that that was written, but apparently, some things never change. The behavior of Christians is a massive stumbling block for people coming to religion and walking away. 

Now, I don't want to advocate for a lack of repentance. Sinners need to repent. I'm not saying discipline isn't sometimes necessary, it is often necessary. I'm just saying this, sometimes our hearts aren't right when we confront the sinners around us. We forget it's often those who sin have seen our sin, whatever it may be. Our harshness drives them away because it's hard to understand. 

My friend, you and I participate in the deconstruction not just of faith but of a heart when we have a legalistic proud heart. So let me remind you, God never gives up on a heart, and you should neither. Let me read something Philip Yancey wrote in his best selling book, What's So Amazing about Grace? He writes, 

In one of His last acts before death, Jesus forgave a thief dangling on a cross, knowing full well the thief had converted out of plain fear. That thief would never study the Bible, never attend synagogue or church, and never make amends to all those he'd wronged. He simply said, “Jesus, remember me” And Jesus promised, “Today you will be with Me in paradise.” It was another shocking reminder that grace does not depend on what we have done for God, but rather what God has done for us. 

I want you to take inventory of your own heart right now. Does that seem fair? Grace is extravagant. Jesus died for that sinner you're so worried about because He loved them. Be sure you act accordingly, fellow sinner. 

Portia: Amen, Dannah Banana. You always take us Straight to the Word. I know you couldn't hear me, but I was over here like, “Come on Girl, teach us.” 

Dannah: I was fired up. It was Alisa Childers. We should have her every week.

Portia: Absolutely, yes. And you know, I love me some Galatians. So as soon as you said Galatians, 6:1. I was like, “Let’s go!” So, thank you so much, Dannah. 

Dannah: You're welcome, Friend.

51:57 - Resources to Stay Grounded

Portia: Well, let's keep it going. Guys, you know what time it is. We love to give you the good stuff. What is this good stuff that I'm talking about? 

Today, we want to point you to what I like to call the Grounded archives. Well, first of all, let me back up. Some of you might be new here. You may not know that there are nearly 200 Grounded episodes in the vault. Okay, did y'all hear me? 200! So, if you're new here, you’ve got a lot of catching up to do. 

Some of our past episodes include this familiar one with Alisa. It was titled “Wisely Responding to the Deconstruction Movement.” Also, there are a lot of other hope-saturated episodes like, “Living the Christian Life with Courage.” That one was with Rosaria Butterfield, and it was a favorite. “Where Is God When You Need Him?” And that was with Susie Larson. 

And there are many, many, many more. You can find them all at ReviveOurHearts.com/Grounded. And if you have not done so already, let me just tell you, go ahead and pick your phone up if you're not watching on your phone. Go ahead and subscribe to the Grounded podcast wherever you get your podcasts—Apple, Spotify. Subscribe now you will get every episode sent straight to your phone. 

And I want to ask you this before I go, “What's your favorite Grounded episode?” Hmm. If you're watching this live on video, go ahead and drop that in the chat. Because, guess what? Friends don't let friends miss a good episode of Grounded right? 

All right. At the top of this episode, we also promised to bring you a video update from our dear friends Robyn and Ray McKelvy. Many of you have been asking about them. We recently found out Robyn suffered another stroke. But here's the good news. Her faith is strong. She and Ray are facing this storm together. And so, they sent us this short clip for you to watch. And I know you will be blessed to see that megawatt signature smile that Robyn still has. Check out this video.

54:10 - Video update from Ray and Robyn McKelvy

Ray McKelvy: Well, hello family. This is Ray and Robyn from Nashville, well, Franklin, Tennessee. And first off, we love you guys. And we really hate that we are not there with you. 

Robyn McKelvy: Amen. 

Ray: And so, you would have thought we were about to do a conference trying to get this rigged up and ready to send to you guys. But you know, we never know what life is going to bring. 

When we said our vows over thirty-five years ago, you know for richer for poorer, for better for worse, it mean in the ups and the downs. Our commitment is first off to the Lord, but our commitment is to each other. 

I would have never thought in March of last year when we were doing our conference in Atlanta, Georgia that . . . I knew my wife had something going on but I didn't know exactly what it was, but she was actually having strokes, we're guessing, while she was doing the conference. Robyn being the person that just pushes through, even though she was experiencing these things. She pushed through the conference and shortly after the Atlanta conference.

Robyn: The next day. 

Ray: Yeah, the next day, we started the whole process of . . . I won't go into detail of going to the ER and realizing that she had actually had multiple strokes. And here we are, here we are.

Robyn: Here we are. I have some things that I have to rehab. Most of that is speaking. Nothing is wrong at all with my brain. 

Ray: That’s true. 

Robyn: So when Ray speaks, I hear and I have a comment. 

Ray: Oh, and you have a comment. That has not changed. I just talk a little faster than she does now. So we wanted you to see and to hear from us. Did you want to say something?

Robyn: Yes. Love you guys. Hate not being there. 

Ray: That’s so true. And we love you guys. It's kind of a silly video update. But we miss you. Love you. God bless you guys.

Robyn: Amen. Bye bye.

Portia: Honestly, talking right back at Robyn when she said there's nothing wrong with okay. I was like, “Come on, Girl.” 

Well, here's something that we can do practically for Ray and Robyn, and that is pray. Some specific ways that we can pray for the McKelvy’s is first pray that doctors can help with creating a more comprehensive plan for recovery. This is going to be a long road. I know that Robyn has the heart to want to be strengthen and get rehab. So just pray for wisdom for the doctors as they journey through this. 

Also pray that they can figure out the ultimate why behind the strokes, and what's going on, and get to the root of that. And then this last thing, and I think is most important, pray for just peace and joy to just flood the souls of Robyn and Ray as they continue to navigate all of this. 

Seeing their smiles was such an encouragement to me because when you're suffering sometimes the last thing you want to do is smile. To see them so full of joy and so playful was an encouragement. I pray that you guys were encouraged. Robyn and Ray, I want you to know, you probably already know this, but your Grounded family loves you. We will not stop praying for you. 

Dannah: Amen. Hey, Friend, I want to just give one more chance for you to put your name, your story, your loved one in the comments, because we are getting so many live comments of people writing about their son, their daughter, walking away from the faith. We're gonna remind you to put the name in the comment because we have a Grounded prayer team. They are prayer generals, as Erin would call them, not prayer warriors. They are generals in the army of the kingdom of God. We want to pray for you. Let me read just a couple of these comments. 

Lisette writes, “These past four years since my son has walked away, God continues to have me dig in His Word and on my knees for him and others who are lost. Truth is found in God and His Word.” 

I can just feel this mama's yearning, can you hear it? The yearning in her voice? I think my favorite was this one with hope and perspective from Denise who writes, “Until the last breath, there is hope.”

Erin: So true, I loved that Alisa gave us that image of this being the Saturday. I look forward to the Sunday, the moment in Christian history which are worth telling stories like: my son who walked away from the Lord for four years came back to the Lord. My daughter who cut off contact with me for ten years has called me and said that she came back to Christ. There will be a Sunday morning, and that's where we put our hope and perspective. 

Hey, next week kicks off a two-part series here on Grounded about another tough topic. We're going to be talking about porn. Dannah is gonna share some of her observations from the frontlines of ministry to tweens, and we're gonna have an honest conversation about how porn has impacted our own families.

And next week in particular, we’re gonna give you some tools for how to talk to your children about porn. Listen, if something just rose up in you that said, “I don't need to talk about that with my kids, they’re too young, or I don't want to talk about that, or my kids don't struggle with porn. You do, you do need to talk about it. We're going to make that obvious as we talk about what's happened in our own homes. So, it is an important conversation, and we don't want it to wreak havoc in our lives. It has consequences like the consequences we've been talking about in this episode. So, set a timer and be back next Monday.

Dannah: That's right. Let's wake up with hope together next week on Grounded.

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