Spiritual Mothers Who Changed the World: Amy Carmichael & Maria Fearing, with Karen Ellis and Hunter Beless

The kingdom is not limited to your own biological family. Spiritual motherhood is a force so powerful, it really can change the world. Find out how in this episode of Grounded with guests Karen Ellis and Hunter Beless, who share the inspiring stories of Amy Carmichael and Maria Fearing.

Connect with Karen

Instagram: @ka_ellis 

Twitter: @K_A_Ellis 

Website: https://karenangelaellis.com/

Connect with Hunter

Instagram: @hunterbeless

Instagram: @journeywomenpodcast 

Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/HunterBeless

Website: https://www.hunterbeless.com/

Episode Notes

• True Girl website: https://mytruegirl.com/
• Maria Fearing children’s book by Karen Ellis: https://www.thegoodbook.com/maria-fearing
• “Do Great Things for God” book series from The Good Book Company: https://www.thegoodbook.com/series/do-great-things-for-god/
• If book by Amy Carmichael: https://www.amazon.com/If-Amy-Carmichael/dp/0875080715
• Amy Carmichael children’s book by Hunter Beless: https://www.thegoodbook.com/amy-carmichael 
• The Journeywomen podcast: https://journeywomenpodcast.com/
• Give toward Revive Our Hearts’ Fiscal Year End goal: https://www.reviveourhearts.com/donate/unremarkable2023/
• (Un)remarkable book: https://www.reviveourhearts.com/books/unremarkable/
• (Un)remarkable Volume 2 eBook: https://www.reviveourhearts.com/donate/unremarkable2023/

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Dannah Gresh: What difference can one woman make? Well, that's a good question, and we've got an answer. It's one that will inspire you to see the word mother in a whole new way. I am Dannah Gresh, and this is Grounded.

Portia Collins: I am Portia Collins, and y’all already know why we are here. We show up week after week to hand out two things we love: hope and perspective. We've got a unique and biblical perspective on motherhood to give away today. 

Dannah: That's right. And we're not just talking about being a mom to the children you gave birth to or adopted. I have experienced both of those glorious ways of becoming a mother. But lots of moms do those things and never express this kind of mama's heart. 

Today's topic is spiritual motherhood. It's a force so powerful that it really can change the world, and our world could certainly use some positive changes right now. My heart is breaking for the people in Texas. Our prayers are going out to you. We need this program because our world is broken.

Portia: Yeah, no doubt. Well, I'm excited because we've got two exceptional guests. We have the lovely Karen Ellis, who is the director of the Edmiston Center at Reformed Theological Seminary in Atlanta. And we also have the fabulous Hunter Beless, who is the host of The Journey Women podcast. And so, they are here to represent two other spiritual women that we're going to learn about today: Mariah Fearing and Amy Carmichael.

Dannah: Yeah, I'm so excited because Amy Carmichael is one of my heroes, Portia, I love her. She mothered many children into the kingdom without ever having a biological baby of her own. Her love for discipling children is actually one of the things that played a role in inspiring me to launch True Girl. If you don't know what that is, True Girl is the ministry I lead that brings moms and daughters closer to each other and closer to Jesus. We provide tools for actual moms, birth moms, or adoptive moms to infuse their parenting with spiritual nurturing. 

So, Amy inspired me. I hope that now as a result of that I'm inspiring other moms to mother spiritually. And that's the kind of rippling effect that spiritual motherhood can have. And that's what we want to talk about today. We're gonna take a deep dive into this holy passion of mine on this episode of Grounded. I hope you'll stick around for it.

Portia: Yeah, but first, a little birdie told me that you got on a soapbox when you first read this episode outline. Do we need to talk about that?

Dannah: Yeah, sure. Okay, here's my one-minute soapbox speech about spiritual mothering. When I looked at our script, I was like today's guests are going to be with us today to talk about two spiritual mothers and listen, if you're a biography buff, you're going to love this because it's all biographies. 

These are two women that we could never dream of interviewing, not because their schedules are full but to be blunt, Amy Carmichael and Mariah Fearing are long dead. Well, maybe I should put it this way. They are more alive than ever in the presence of Christ, amen. 

Portia: Amen. 

Dannah: My point is this, it is awesome to read biographies of women who did spiritual mothering well, and it's great to listen to podcasters who teach the word like us, but that cannot replace the need in your life for one-on-one face-to-face life on life spiritual mothering, amen again, Portia Girl?

Portia: Amen again. Yeah, amen.

Dannah: Our good news, today, we're gonna bring Erin Davis. She’s in here to remind you that good books and good podcasts don't replace good women when it comes to spiritual mothering. And here is our dear Erin to drive that point home.

Erin Davis: And my puppy Moses who was being so good until it was time for me to be on. 

Dannah: He’s decided to join the party. 

14:37 - Good News (Spiritual Daughters)

Erin: He’s decided to join the Grounded chorus. So just ignore his barking. W're just gonna roll with what happens today.

I get the joy of being the good news correspondent today, which is one of my favorite assignments on the Grounded team. And as the dog barks, I would like to introduce you to my daughters. Now, if you're a longtime Grounded watcher or listener, you might have just spit out your coffee, because then you know that I don't have biological daughters. The Lord blessed me with four sons, Eli, Noble, Judah, and Ezra. You'd know that because they're one of my favorite things to talk about. 

But no, no girls, we were just talking before the episode that nobody in my house ever tells me I'm cute, or notices I got a haircut, because there's so much testosterone pumping through the walls of this house that I live in. But in God's providence, though He did not give me biological daughters of my own, He did give me daughters. 

Four times I went into the labor and delivery room. Four times I heard these words, “It's a boy.” But God has given me many, many—countless as I started to think about it—so many opportunities to love young women, to serve young women, to encourage them to teach them. Sometimes for just a little while maybe at an event or a brief encounter. Some of these young women have been a part of my life for decades. 

One of my favorite roles, and I don't have a photo of it, is that I get to be the girl's Sunday School teacher at my church. So I have kindergarteners through sixth grade girls most Sundays, and what a joy it is to be with those girls. They really scratch my itch for arts and crafts. They love to bead bracelets, they love to watercolor, they love to glitter, and I love to be a part of all of that. We compliment each other's shoes every Sunday, which as I said, I don't get that much at home. And we learn about Jesus. 

So, several years ago, as I was thinking about this episode, a memory came to mind when I was just a teenager, 15 years old, in fact, and very new in my walk with Jesus. Dannah Gresh called me something that I had never been called before and I've never been called since. She called me “the daughter of her heart.” I loved that. 

I have a wonderful mama. I've had wonderful grandmas and aunts and biological family, women in my biological family have poured into me. God's given me really rich gifts. The women in my family were together just this weekend to celebrate birthdays, and I've been really blessed in that department. 

But He has also given me so many gifts through the women of the church. And as this episode is unfolding and you're thinking, I don't have that, I hope that you'll be inspired to pray for the Lord to bring it into your life, because what a blessing it has been. 

And so, in addition to having many spiritual mothers, I've also had the blessing of sharing the gifts that God has given me with my own daughters of my heart. 

Your impact on the kingdom is not limited to your own biological family. Although that is a great place to start cheering Jesus, but it doesn't have to stop there. God has always raised up spiritual mothers. Just open your Bible if you don't believe me. He's always raised up spiritual mothers for God's children. In case no one's ever told you this, you can be among them. You can be one of those women that God uses to impact the next generation. Maybe all it takes is volunteering in Sunday school an hour a week. And we think that's pretty good news. Portia?

Portia: I love it. Erin Davis has some daughters.

Erin: I do!

Portia: You’ve got a daughter right here in Mississippi.

Erin: I was gonna say.

Portia: You know, Miss Emmi loves you. Okay.

Erin: I claim Miss Emmi as one of my daughters in my heart for sure. We bonded over chips and queso a couple years ago. She's my girl.

Portia: Yes. And she loves any time she sees your face. This morning she said, “That’s Miss Erin.”

Erin: She is a sweet girl. 

Portia: Thanks so much. Thank you for sharing. 

18:54 - Grounded with God's People (Karen Ellis)

Well, this morning I am elated to bring on Mrs. Karen Ellis, who is one of my favorite people. She is no stranger to the Grounded sisterhood. She's the wife of Dr. Carl Ellis. She's the director of the Edmiston Center at RTS Atlanta. She is the author of a new children's book on Mariah Fearing, and she's got so much to share. And guess what? She's a spiritual mother to many, including me. Welcome back to Grounded, Karen. 

Karen Ellis: Hey, Portia. It’s good to be with you. And oh, my goodness, you start out with that? And where do I even go from there? You know, it's an honor to be in your life. I just love you so much. 

Portia: I love you too. I'm excited for what you're going to share with us. So, I'm gonna start digging right in. Can you tell us who Mariah Fearing was? In fact, you helped me. Fun fact guys. She helped me to pronounce correctly Mariah. She knows a lot, and I want her to share. What were some significant contributions to history and the Church that Mariah brought?

Karen: Mariah Fearing is one of those historical figures that may not be written in the history books of man, but she's written in the Lamb's Book of Life, which is the most important book she needs to be written in, right?

She's one of those folks that just quietly served in the background and was doing radical things. As she served others, she was a part of the first African American mission team from the United States to Congo. The whole team was about 13 or 14 folks. They went to Congo just after slavery ended. 

So, we're talking the Reconstruction period. You've got almost a congregation full of people who had been educated at historically black colleges and universities in the early, early, early days, like when the classes were two and three people. You know, you see those old photos, and she had gone to Talladega Freedman school. She got educated to the ninth grade. She bought her own home when she was emancipated. She was already in her 40s. 

So, by the time she's in her 50s, she receives a call to mission. And so, she goes with a team called the Shepherd Team, with William and Lucy Shepherd and a bunch of other folks. She gives her life to a life in Congo. 

Now, at this point, it's the Free State of Congo. And then while she's there, Belgian King Leopold takes over, and he is a tyrant. And so, he starts abusing people for the rubber trade, the ivory trade, the Arab slave trade, and there's all these orphans that are being left. 

So she starts squaring off with King Leopold's colonizing forces. She starts ransoming children with items: scissors, pieces of thread, beads, and she starts buying these children back. Well, once she starts buying them back what do you do with them? 

So, she starts a home and becomes . . . and remember, she's in her 50s. I'm 55. She's 56 when she's doing this. She has started a whole new life, never married, no children. And all of a sudden, she's a mother to many. 

And she lives most of the rest of her life in Congo mothering these children, teaching them the place where their faith and their work intersect the place where what they believe about God and how they obey God match. And they love her so much, Portia. They give her a name. And her name became “Mama Wah On Kootu,” which means “mother from far away.” So, don’t get me started. 

Portia: I know, like, what a story!

Karen: How do we not know this story? Right?

Portia: Right. Oh, absolutely. 

Karen: That was the burden of my heart to put this story in form for my granddaughter, who you know, she has itchy feet. She wants to travel. She wants to go and see the world and do things, and she loves Jesus. 

And so, I put the book in story form for her and her little friend across the street so that they could have Mariah’s story added to the great collection that the Good Book Company has put out. Mariah Fearing’s story is a part of the larger collection that's being done by the Good Book Company.

Portia: I actually have the next book that's coming out when Hunter comes. I have this one here, and I'm waiting on yours in the mail. I'm so excited to put this collection together to have for my own daughter, Miss Emory. Oh, yeah. Let me ask you this. How has Mariah’s role as a spiritual mother impacted you specifically?

Karen: Well, I have a lot of sympathies and connections with Mariah story. She started new things later in life. I can relate. She never married. I didn't marry until I was 42. First time, only time. 

And then also just the whole concept of becoming a spiritual mom. When I married my husband, he already had two children that he had raised by himself. And so all of a sudden, I was on the fast track. I was learning how to be a mom and then grandma, within a few months after getting married. I was a spiritual daughter to my husband's mom who was living with us. I was on the fast track for everything. 

About 10 years ago, 11 years ago, I started exploring the Bible for those places as I was dealing with my own infertility, looking at the places where God redeems and speaks to barrenness. I found more in Mariah’s story, that same concept that when God says He makes everything new. When he says He makes things exnilo, when He creates something out of nothing, He means it. That's how all of this got here. He specializes and delights in creating something out of nothing. 

So, the concept of spiritual motherhood really started to expand for me through Mariah’s story. I started reading the passage in Isaiah 54, where the Lord actually refers to Israel as a barren woman. He tells that barren woman to sing and to rejoice. 

Now, if you think about the context of the culture, back in the day when that was written, barren women had nothing to rejoice about. It was a cultural shame. You didn't have an insurance policy; you didn't have an inheritance plan. You were largely seen as a burden on the rest of society.And God's saying, “No, I bring something out of nothing all the time. Watch Israel, and do it through you.”

And even Jesus born . . . Isaiah 53, we see that the chapter before we see the prophecy, of how He comes through at a time when the land is barren. The prophets haven't spoken in forever, right? 

And so, all these things of God say, “I specialize in making life. So don't despair, barren woman, don't despair, Hannah.” Don't despair. You know, Sarah, all the people who just went and thought that they would never have children. And God says, “I’m going to do something new; I'm always doing something new.” 

So, Mariah's story was sort of an echo of what I was seeing in my own life. And what I was reading in Isaiah, and it thrilled me. It gave purpose to my own. I'm like, “Oh, there are women who are saying, ‘I want to be discipled.’” I want somebody in my own church and my own local church, because that's where I believe that's where the good stuff is, right? In the local church. 

And I was like, there's a lot of social orphans right around me. Some people who have great relationships with their moms, but they need . . . Sometimes it's the messenger, they want to hear it from somebody else if they don't have great relationships with their mom. Sometimes they've never had a mom at all, or they have a contentious relationship with mom. We have some young women who were discipling their own moms because their moms have come to faith later in life. All sorts of different situations that a woman with wisdom . . . it's not a woman with children that you have to be. It's a woman with wisdom that can speak into.

Portia: Amen, I love it. Look, somebody needs to write it down, quote it. You don't have to have children. Wisdom that comes from God. 

Well, you kind of already alluded to this, and I want to press it even more. We know that God doesn't call us to be mothers or spiritual mothers without a purpose. It is His intent. He's very intentional. We know that our callings as moms and spiritual moms is for the purpose of building His kingdom. 

Karen: That’s right. 

Portia: So, can you share a little bit on how spiritual mothering actually shapes and empowers the church, the big “C” Church, the bride of Christ?

Karen: Right. This is my thought, that it does that through one or two ways. It's both individual and it's communal. We are a body. We can't be separated from each other, and we have responsibilities. We have responsibility to each other. Disciple making is not it's not a terminal project. It doesn't end. I've discipled you, you make disciples, so that they make more disciples, so that they make more disciples. We're not just here to make converts. We're here to disciple people from foolishness to wisdom. 

You know, when I first came to Christ, I had to unlearn a whole lot of stuff. It took a village too. I had all these moms. I had a mom to help me with my finances. I had a mom to help me with mission. I had a mom to help me with nutrition. I had a mom to help me with fitness. Maybe I was just a special case, maybe I needed a whole bunch of people pouring into me.

Portia: Me too. 

Karen: You did too? And so we need this. And so, we get formed as we enter into spiritual motherhood. The Lord just doesn't work on somebody else. He works on us as well. We learn in a two-way relationship. I know you know this, we learn in a two-way relationship when we disciple.

And so, He's growing the kingdom externally, but He's also growing us in the process. It's His way of sanctifying us in that beautiful, ongoing process that makes us less and less foolish as we go along and making more and more wise decisions, decisions that don't lead to our own destruction. Decisions that don't make us dwell in the house of folly. But decisions that invite us into that house of wisdom that you read about in Proverbs 8 and 9. 

That’s the house I want to dwell in. I don't want to hurt other people. I want to make life. I don't want to make death. I don't want to make foolishness and destruction. I want to see other people doing the same thing for themselves. 

This beautiful process. I'm glad they didn't make me be God because I wouldn't have done it like this. I would have set up some horrible system that everybody would fail at every turn, but God set it up so that we could be involved in His work. What a gracious Savior!

Portia: Amen. Oh, you just brought it home, you brought it home. I'm encouraged not only to lean in and ask the Lord to help me be a better biological mom, but to also open up those opportunities to spiritual mother more and to be spiritually mothered. So, I am so grateful for you. Thank you. Where can we learn more about your new children's biography on Mariah Fearing?

Karen: You can follow me on Twitter, at Ka_Ellis, or you can check out the Good Book Company. They will be posting when it releases. I think it's sometime this summer. You can check out the whole collection there as well. They're all-over social media. It's the Good Book Company UK. There's a whole sisterhood. 

Portia: Yeah, I’ve got this one.

Karen: Yeah, Do Great Things for God series. You'll find some really unusual unsung people, you'll find some of the usual suspects. I have another one coming out that I'll be doing as well sometime next year. So, it's just an honor to contribute to the series. You can pick them up where you find your great Christian books.

Portia: All right, perfect. Thank you so much for being with us, Karen. You know, I love you. 

Karen: Thank you. I love you too, Portia. 

Portia: Well, Erin is going to take us into God's Word soon, coming up soon with some profound thoughts on spiritual mothering. And you might wonder if this is a good idea or maybe even a command of God. I can't wait to hear this. But first, the Journey Woman's Hunter Beless is going to chat with Dannah. She's going to talk about Amy Carmichael. I'm excited.

33:46 - Grounded with God’s People (Hunter Beless)

Dannah: That's right. I'm excited to talk with a woman that I love about a woman that I love. Hunter Beless is a beloved author and podcaster. She's written a biography on one of my favorite spiritual mothers, Amy Carmichael. I can't wait to hear what Hunter has to say about her. Hello, Hunter. Welcome back to Grounded.

Hunter Beless: Hi. Thank you so much for having me. It's a joy to be here, as always.

Dannah: We love you. Well, I want to know why you picked Amy Carmichael?

Hunter: Oh, my goodness, that's such a loaded question for me. Whenever I was in college, I read Amy Carmichael's biography. I decided that I actually wanted to go to India. It is just so fascinating to see how in Amy's life there are so many different ways that the Lord moved her to place her exactly where He would use her. And the Lord did not see fit to use me in India. 

And yet, years and years later, I have such a connection with Amy, because once I started the Journey Woman podcast, I began to look at the analytics as we were going to monetize and things like that. I saw that one of the primary countries that it was being downloaded in was India. 

It just reminded me of Amy's life, how the Lord goes before us and prepares us for what He has prepared for us. And that is true of Amy's life as well. So, I've always had a kindred heart connection with her and the ministry that the Lord entrusted to her.

Dannah: Yeah, me too. I love her. That is just like God to make your podcasts go bonkers in India, just like God. 

Hunter: Isn’t it?

Dannah: Give us a snapshot of her life. Take us into one moment for the person that's never heard of Amy Carmichael( living under a rock, I guess). Well, I mean, she has been gone a long time. What do we need to know about her?

Hunter: She's probably best known for her work in India. She actually rescued hundreds, maybe even 1,000s, of children that had been in temple prostitution. And so that's how she became a mother to many, to continue today's theme. But there are also so many parts of her life where God was moving her. It was really a bumpy road to get her to the ministry that we all know and love her for today. There's so much to her life. She has so many books that we can all reference and learn from. 

One of the things I find most interesting about her life is that she went to India when she was 27 years old, and she never returned home to Ireland. The Lord used her during that period of her life. At the very end of her life, she actually had an injury where she fell into a hole in a medical dispensary. And for the last couple of decades of her life, she was bedridden, certainly not the ministry that she had set out for or envisioned for her life. And yet, the Lord used that period of her life to write so many of the works that we access and find encouragement from today. 

So just again, the story of God's sovereignty as manifested in Amy Carmichael's life, I find it so encouraging for the many bumps and turns and twists that the ministry that He set before me takes today.

Dannah: Yeah, I love that it was through suffering that she became very fruitful as a writer. I actually have the book If on my nightstand right now. I've read it before, but I'm reading through it again right now. It's like a one-sentence-a-night thing, because there's that much power packed in everything.

Hunter: I have it right here; it’s wonderful. 

Dannah: Oh, it’s the best, isn't it?

When you look at her life, what's a character quality that you want to emulate?

Hunter: You know, I think If is a great picture of that. It's love. One of the chapters that she would have her girls in the school . . . So eventually, as she began to take in all of these girls, she had to care for them. Then she would teach them and all these things. So they had a school, and they would recite every Monday 1 Corinthians 13, which we all know is the love chapter, right? “If I speak in the tongues of men and angels,” and that is what I believe this book was birthed out of. Someone came to her. They were having a quarrel with another worker at the fellowship where she had all of the children, and she wrote this book about all the things like if this, that and the other, then I know nothing of Calvary’s love.

And so, I think love is just such a picture. That character quality is something that she embodies so well. She loved all of the children that came to live with her. She loved the men and the women who served together with her at Dohnavur Fellowship. So when I'm dealing with various squabbles and trials within the four walls of my own home, I often think of her, and I'm prompted to remember what love is. That's something that she wanted her children to remember as they lived together, and it's something that she very much embodied as well.

Dannah: I love that. Well, you know, we love the Word here at Revive Our Hearts. So I'm wondering, are there any Scriptures Amy carried in her heart in a special way that have been meaningful to you?

Hunter: Yeah, I think that 1 Corinthians 13 passage is something that I committed to memory with my children, just to remind me again, what is love? It's 13 verses. I just remember how they would recite it every Monday morning. We have made that a practice in our own home. But certainly, there are many Scriptures. Her whole entire life really revolved around God's Word. 

There was even a period in her ministry in which the missionary society that she was a part of was divesting from the inerrancy of the Word of God. And so, she actually divested from that particular missionary agency. I know how very difficult a thing to do, particularly in the 1800s when we didn't have access to communication to be able to get the word out and raise support the way that we do now. 

Just looking at her life, you'll see that there are many, many Scriptures that infiltrated her ministry pretty much every moment of every day.

Dannah: I love that. Well, you heard my soapbox, so I love it that Amy Carmichael is a spiritual mother to you as she is to me, but who is mothering you in real life? And who are you mothering?

Hunter: You know, I'm a part of a very tiny church plant here in Northwest Arkansas. I believe we have 49 members, we may be up to 52. And so, it's very interesting to be in a smaller congregation where there's not a whole lot of older women. I would even say that some of the older women have come and said, you know, we don't feel as spiritually mature as some of you younger women. 

And yet, I have so many spiritual mothers who have, yes, wisdom. They do exactly what Amy Carmichael did with her children and the women who served alongside her. They have served me. 

Just last week I had a wonderful older lady in our congregation come and sit at the table. She said, “You know, you're teaching me so much about Scripture.” But the way that we conversed around the table just about the issues that I was having in my own family, I cannot tell you, I have taken so much heart, just walking through the various trials that I've walked through in the last week as a result of just her sitting at the table and serving me by asking questions, and by speaking into the situation. 

So, I have a whole host of mentors, certainly, but there are a few in my particular local church context, that just continue to be there, continue to text me, and ask me, “How can I pray for you?” Even though I know they don't feel necessarily equipped for the job, I have to say they have been such an encouragement to me in my day to day ministry. 

Then I have younger women as well. There's a young girl who comes over every Tuesday morning, every other Tuesday. We study the Scriptures together, and she's 15 years old. It's just such a gift to finally be growing up into an older woman to serve the younger generation as I have been so served by the spiritual mothers in my own life.

Dannah: I love that. I love that it's so important that we're not just teaching about this on podcast, writing about this in books, but that we're actually living it out in our local congregations. 

All right, the biography you have written for the Good Book Company on Amy Carmichael, as well as the biography Karen Ellis has written for the Good Book Company on Mariah Fearing is for really little women aged four to seven. That's pretty young. Why does it matter that a four-year-old learns about these two great missionaries?

Hunter: I think every kid is going to be looking for a hero, and the culture is going to give them heroes, right? They're interfaced with different musicians or sports stars all the time. 

And so, I think as Christian parents for us to be able to give them heroes that they can look to is such a service to them in growing up to be the older women that we hope that they would be to follow Jesus.

Dannah: I'd love to hear what Karen Ellis has to say about that. I wonder, Karen, could you come back on and tell us why is it that you wrote this for your granddaughter? How old is she?

Karen: She's eight, about to be nine. 

Dannah: So why does it matter?

Karen: It matters because she is an age where there are a lot of challenging ministries that are not models necessarily of faithfulness. I think we need more heroes, to see people who lived faithful Christian lives, people who finished well, and that they can model themselves after. So, I'm excited for her to have this whole collection in her hands.

Dannah: Me too. My grandbabies turn four in just a few weeks, and I've ordered both your books. Hey, it's also, I think, important because the bookshelves at all the secular stores are full of biographies of women whose lives I don't want my granddaughters to emulate, but they're being lifted up as heroic. 

It's really important that we have alternatives for them, that we say no to some of those options and we say yes to some of these. 

Here's another question I really want to ask both of you. I really believe someone's sitting there right now listening to Grounded, watching Grounded, and saying, “This sounds awesome for you guys. But I don't see spiritual mothering happening in my congregation.” What should she do? Karen?

Karen: I think there's a few things going on there. Childless women can be made to feel like they have less to contribute to the church or to an individual life. And that's a lie straight from the pit of hell. 

I remember sitting next to a woman 15 years ago who was the first person who made me feel like I actually, as a single gal, had something to contribute to in terms of spiritual motherhood. 

And so, I think encouraging each other towards that. Not being afraid to be vulnerable, to let others see us work through relational problems or fights or tensions, and also prioritizing each other in those intimate, vulnerable places. If we don't do that, we'll miss so much. So, start asking God to guide us to someone organically. I wouldn't barge in like, I'm the Savior. You know, like, I've got it all figured out. But ask the Lord to guide you to someone. I can guarantee you, there's probably someone in your local church that's asking and looking for some kind of Titus 2 mentorship, and she's missing it. Be able to step into the gap.

Dannah: I love that. Hunter, sounds like you. I know that you just recently moved to the state that you're in. You had to start building those relationships. What advice do you have for somebody who isn't experiencing that and wants to do what you've done and start experiencing it?

Hunter: I would just say to start asking really good questions. That's how the Journey Women podcast was born. I just took all of my questions to people who I respected and began asking them, and I've learned that that practice serves really well in real life as well. 

I have a whole host of questions like, “Hey, you know, what does it look like for you to pray? What does it look like for you to study the Word? What does it look like this, that, and the other?” Just have a whole list of questions that you keep in a note on your iPhone. 

And before you meet with an older woman, ask her to grab coffee or something like that, review those questions so that your conversation isn't idle. It gives them the opportunity to share without feeling like they're barging in, as Karen said.

I would say just start paying attention to really good questions that you can ask and pay attention to what women are good at. You know, that's why I said, I have a whole host of mentors. I might have a few that have taught me more about Bible study. I may have a few that have taught me a lot about prayer. I may have a few that have just lived really hard lives and that have clung to God's faithfulness through those hard times. 

And so, I'm gonna cater those questions to their strengths, and then seek to learn from them and those in those ways.

Dannah: It's interesting, you and Karen both said that same kind of thing. Like you have a spiritual mother for this, a spiritual mother for this, a spiritual mother for this. So that's an encouragement, like, not all of us are going to have that really deep one spiritual mother that does everything for us. In fact, I don't have that. But we can have relationships with many women that we look to with the respect of a spiritual mother because of how she's able to contribute to our lives. 

You guys have been a blessing to us today. We are so excited about these little biographies for little women. I love it when the Church does something for God's girls, His little girls.

So, one more time, Hunter, tell us where we can find out about both of those books and tell us how we can follow you and learn more about the Journey Women podcast.

Hunter: Like Karen said, they are published by the Good Book Company. It's called “Do Great Things for God” series. They have a whole page on their website with a whole host of mentors that your little girls will love to read about. My six-year-old actually adores the series, so I highly recommend them all. And you can find me at @HunterBeless on Instagram or Journey Women podcast and download wherever you listen to podcasts.

Dannah: Thank you friends God bless you. Always love to have you on Grounded.

Hunter: Thank you. 

Karen: Thank you. 

Dannah: Okay, we want to end this spiritual mother time traveling machine by getting grounded in God's Word today. Let's ask this question: just how essential is spiritual mothering? Here's the daughter of my heart who, like our biological babies, has grown up to be the friend of my lifetime. Erin Davis.

49:00 - Grounded in God's Word

Erin: While you all are reaching for your Bibles, I have to describe something that just happened in the Erin Davis studio, which is that I had this box on my desk. I have a stack of mail. It occurred to me as Hunter was talking what might be inside of that box. And I was right, it was my copy of the book. I hadn’t opened it yet. 

I’m so, so thrilled to be reading this with the Greentree girl Sunday school class this week. But in the midst of that stretching, one earring flew out of my ear, across the room under the couch, one still in my ear. That's just how my Monday's going. 

So, we're just gonna get through it. Together, it's gonna be a wild ride. But we're gonna continue being grounded in God's Word. 

So, grab your Bibles, we're gonna be in a couple of different places in Scriptures, you'll be hopping around a little bit with me. But as we do jump into Scripture, here is a really profound thought, at least it was profound to me as I was thinking about this episode. God cares about every generation. 

In your grandparents’ generation, for example, God was working. God was wooing, God was winning the lost in your parents’ generation. God was calling, God was equipping, God was transforming His children—and in your generation and in mine, if we're in different generations. He has worked in every single generation since Adam and Eve, the first ones to bear His image. 

So that's a profound thought that God cares about every generation. But I think maybe this one's a little bit more profound. If the Lord tarries, if we don't see Him returning for us in this generation, He will still be working in the lives of people 100 generations from now. God will be working. In fact, He's already working in the lives of your children's, children's, children's, children and beyond that. Let me show you. Don't just take my word for it. Let me show you in His Word. 

Listen to Psalm 100, verse 5,

For the Lord is good;
his steadfast love endures forever,
and his faithfulness to all generations.

This is an important verse, Church, because I think a lot of times, we can look at the generation that's coming up or, or several generations to come up, and we can start pacing the floor and wringing our hands and think, “Oh no, what's gonna happen?” And certainly, every generation has to grapple with God's truth and who He is and how they're going to live that out. But the psalmist said that God's faithfulness is from generation to generation. There will never be a moment when the baton of God's faithfulness drops on the track, so to speak, and He forgets to take care of or to use a generation. 

Listen to Daniel chapter 4, verse 3, 

How great are his signs,
how mighty his wonders!
His kingdom is an everlasting kingdom
and his dominion endures from generation to generation.

So, we see that His faithfulness is from generation to generation. And we see that His kingdom is from generation to generation. 

Okay, fess up. Who watched the coronation activities this weekend? I certainly did. And we saw the establishment of a kingdom so to speak, but not one that's going to last from generation to generation to generation. Eventually that king is going to die. He'll be replaced by another king or queen. But God's kingdom isn't like that. God's dominion endures from generation to generation. One more, a favorite of mine, Psalm 103, verses 17–18. I'm going to read it out of the ESV. 

But the steadfast love of the Lord is from everlasting to everlasting on those who fear him,
and his righteousness to children's children,
 

So, right there in Scripture. God's faithfulness isn't just for you, and not just for your children, your grandchildren and beyond. Verse 18,

. . . to those who keep his covenantand remember to do his commandments.

So, all of this begs a really important question that you've been listening to this episode. Maybe the dots just didn't quite connect between all the things we've been talking about and how it applies to your real life. But if God cares about future generations, shouldn't we? More specifically, shouldn't you? The Bible says that you should. 

One more verse, Psalm 145, verse 4, 

One generation shall commend your works to another,
and shall declare your mighty acts.

Now, of course, this happens inside our families. For those of us who are blessed to be mothers and grandmothers, there's a real practical application there. We're not just supposed to make it to all the basketball games, or make sure that the lunches are packed. We're supposed to declare the works of the Lord to the next generation. But I don't see anything in that verse, or any of the verses that we've read that says, this can only happen in our biological families, or even should only happen. That sounds like a command to me, one generation shall commend your works to another. 

So, there's a question for you, friend. Are you commending the works of God, the faithfulness of God, the kingdom of God? Are you intentionally passing those things on to the next generation? Because God's already at work in that generation; you don't want to miss it. Don’t you want to be a part of it? I do. 

When I open my Bible, I see that spiritual motherhood is less of a suggestion and more of a command for God's people. And like all of God's commands, it's less of a got to and more of a get to. I cannot tell you the blessings in my life that have come from having spiritual mothers and intentionally being a spiritual mother. As Hunter and Karen and Dannah were talking, I was reminded again that sometimes we think this is just going to fall in our lap, that some young woman is going to come up to us in church and say, “I see that you love the Lord.” It usually takes a lot more intentionality than that. 

So, the seemingly insignificant things that you do today to invest in the lives of women around you, they could last well beyond you. They're part of your legacy. God could use the things you do and say today, the things you pray today, the things you invest in other women today, God could use them to make a difference from generation to generation to generation to generation. If He tarries, that's pretty exciting to think about. And it also means we got work to do. 

Dannah: Yeah. You know, the ripple effect, right? 

Portia: Yes. 

Dannah: That's the ripple effect that we were talking about. I love it. So good. Well, friends, we always want to equip you to put the things you hear on Grounded into practice. And here's where I feel like I want to jump in and issue a challenge. Is that okay, Portia? 

Portia: That's fine. 

Dannah: The Grounded Challenge is coming up. Okay. This is not one of those episodes you listen to and just enjoy. We are calling you to action. If you're a spiritual daughter, just like we honor women through Mother's Day and do each year, I want you to reach out to a spiritual mother and bless her. Text her, plan a coffee date, send a card, it takes work to mother someone. Let her know it has paid off, and that you notice and that you're grateful. 

And if you are a spiritual mother without any spiritual kiddos, because I think as you've listened today, you've heard, we're all called to this right? If you're not currently spiritually nurturing someone, well I wonder, did God bring someone to your heart or to your mind, for you to nurture as you heard this program? Maybe a young woman in your church or a girl in your youth group? That's how my relationship with Erin started. God put her on my heart. So, I invited her to be with time. Do you know what be with time is? Have you ever heard of that? 

Portia: I’ve heard you guys talk about it. To be with each other. 

Dannah: That's to be with each other because we are busy women. That's what my husband calls doing life with, intentionally mentoring someone. It takes the “I'm too busy” out of the equation. So, take that girl in the youth group with you to the grocery store. While you juggle Emmi in the cart, she can load up what you need or vice versa. You load up what you need while she juggles Emmi in the cart. Ask that college girl over to help you plant annuals in your flower bed. That's a really good idea for me. I need to plant annuals in my flower bed right now. Just start being with her. Let God's Spirit plan the rest. So, that's our Grounded sisterhood challenge for this week.

Portia: I love it. You just reminded me I am long overdue for some be with time with someone that I want to say is my spiritual mother, but I also feel like we're close enough in age—I'm older than her—but I want to be like a spiritual big sister?

Dannah: Yeah, well, I was too old when I told Erin she was the daughter of my heart. I wasn't old enough to be your mother. She was too old, so I would like to close in age for that. But you know, the concept can be there, just as you heard Hunter talking about. It's almost like peer-on-peer things happening, but there's still a nurturing taking place.

Portia: Yeah, well, her name is Destiny. She's been out of town. She comes back this week, so I'm gonna schedule some be with time with her. 

Dannah: Good girl. 

Portia: Well, I have one more great resource that could inspire you. I know many of you got excited about just hearing the biographies of Mariah Fearing and Amy Carmichael, but maybe you were a little bummed that the ones featured today are for the younger girls. 

Well, that gives me a chance to tell you that May is our fiscal year-end here at Revive Our Hearts. It's the time of year when we call on women like you to help us continue impacting lives for Christ. So, we've got a big goal this month. We are seeking to raise about $828,000. If the Lord leads you to give, and we hope that He does, you can do that on our homepage at ReviveOurHearts.com. And guess what? We will send you the biographies of 20 ordinary women who made a big impact for Christ. 

So, you will get one of our resources, (Un)remarkable volume one, and the brand-new resource that just released this month, (Un)remarkable volume two, which is a digital download.

Dannah: That's right. And hey, I wrote the foreword for volume two Portia. 

Portia: I did not know that. 

Dannah: Yeah. Amy Carmichael is one of the featured women in that biography, volume two, and I shared about my love for her. I'm just so excited about (Un)remarkable volume two. Well, Erin Davis, come on back in here, because I think we got a big ol’ dollop of spiritual motherhood handed out today, but we’ve got to go practice it. 

Erin: Yeah, we’ve got to practice it. But I was thinking of one thing, we're being real here, one earring and all. I have had the experience more than once where I wanted to invest in somebody. I poured in some sweat equity, and it didn't go well. Either it wasn't reciprocated, or the truth wasn't well heard. 

And that can give you some paralysis. If I'm honest, there have been some seasons where I thought it's not even worth it, because this doesn't always go well. 

So, if that's you, if you're sitting the bench or licking your wounds, so to speak, or you feel like you've put yourself out there, and it did not go well, we want to tell you this isn't a guarantee that it's all going to end in a lovely relationship with each other even growth that you can see in that person's life. 

So, what has to motivate us is serving Jesus and building the kingdom, nothing else. If you're hurting, I get it.

Dannah: I would add to that, play the long arc. My husband always says that in play the long arc mentoring. Discipling is not all coffee dates and thank you notes. It is blood, sweat, and tears. And so, you might be in a blood sweat and tears season. But if you feel like the Lord has called you to that person, don't give up praying for them. Yeah, and be faithful to that until a time that maybe their hearts become open again to your influence.

Erin: Yeah, and Mariah and Amy, I am confident having never conversed with them because they're with the Lord. I'm confident they had moments where they thought, This isn't worth it. They had some rough seasons of ministry and you're going to too, so I don't want to paint it with too rosy of a lens here, but it's totally worth it. Totally worth it. 

So, take all you've heard and ask the Lord to help you know how to apply it.

Portia: That's it. That is the cherry on top. Ask the Lord to help and pray, pray for something. One of my seminary professors said to me, “Pray for divine connections. God knows how to send you exactly to whom He wants you to pour into. And so just make sure you posture yourself to be very prayerful and very thoughtful in seeking God's guidance on spiritual mothering. 

Erin: I am confident that if the women of the Church would accept this call, to be spiritual mothers and be spiritual mothers, we would see profound change in our world. 

Dannah: Yes, amen. 

Erin: I think it's worth it.

Portia: Amen, amen. Well, next week, I'm excited. Colleen Chao will be back with us. She is a frequent guest, frequent flyer here at Grounded. She's gonna equip us to talk to our children about death and suffering. 

Dannah: It’s an important conversation and one that we can still wake up to with hope together next week on Grounded.

Erin: Grounded audio is powered by Skype. Grounded is a production of Revive Our Hearts calling women to freedom, fullness, and fruitfulness in Christ.

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