Thinking Biblically from Womb to Tomb, with Jenny Summers and Dr. Kathryn Butler

Are you pro-life? Or just anti-abortion? In this episode of Grounded, you’ll hear from a trained trauma surgeon and mother of seven about what it means to holistically celebrate life. Dr. Kathryn Butler and Jenny Summers will equip you to think comprehensively about family size and end of life decisions so you can align with God’s heart from womb to tomb.

Original Episode: 

The Pro-Life Issues No One Marches For, with Jenny Summers and Dr. Kathryn Butler 
YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/live/eT9DggR5LK8
Website: https://www.reviveourhearts.com/podcast/grounded/the-pro-life-issues-no-one-marches-for-with-jenny/?utm_source=grounded&utm_medium=link&utm_campaign=grounded+podcast&se=RZZPD

Connect with Jenny 

Instagram: @jenny.m.summers
Connect with Kathryn
Website: https://kathrynbutler.com/

Episode Notes

• “You Have A Pro-Life Story to Tell, with Ryan and Bethany Bomberger” Grounded episode.
• Between Life and Death: A Gospel-Centered Guide to End-of-Life Medical Care by Dr. Kathryn Butler.
• “Learning to Value Life: Fausto and Laura’s Story” series.
• Register for the Biblical Help for Real Life event series.
• Request Uncommon Compassion.

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Dr. Kathryn Butler: God gives us life as a gift, our lives belong to Him. We're commanded to cherish life. But also counter to that He has authority over life and death.

And so, death comes to all of us. Our times are in His hands, the Scripture tells us. And so while we're called to cherish life, in tension to that, the reality is that all of us will die, because it's the wages of our sin. He has authority over the timing of that. 

Erin Davis: Are you pro-life, or just anti-abortion? That's the question my cohost Dannah asked two years ago on an episode of Grounded, and I've never forgotten it. I've seen a shift in my own perspective about what it means holistically to celebrate life.

Welcome to Grounded, I'm Erin Davis. This July we are reairing some of our favorite episodes. And today's episode is one of my all-time favorites because it made me think, and I know it's gonna make you think too.

This episode originally aired in January of 2022. At one point I asked this question: do we have the faith to believe that the forty-ninth anniversary of Roe versus Wade will be the last anniversary ever celebrated? I'm not sure I did have faith to believe at that point. Abortion has been a dark stain on this country for decades. But later that year, in June of 2022, Roe versus Wade was in fact overturned, resulting in some good news we couldn't have reported then.

Approximately 32,000 more babies have been born here in the United States annually since that ruling was overturned. Do the math. Conservatively, more than 50,000 children have experienced life that otherwise might not have. That is good news! But the conversation about what it means to be pro-life is broader than that.

In this episode, here's what you're going to hear. We kept our original opening dialogue because we share our hearts. And the good news is still good news. So, you get a double dose of that today. You're going to hear from two guests, Jenny Summers and Dr. Kathryn Butler. Each bring a unique perspective.

Jenny's going to talk about how pro-life beliefs have informed her family size. And Dr. Kathryn Butler is going to talk about how they inform end-of-life decisions. They're going to help you align with God's heart from womb to tomb. It's going to be a bit longer episode than usual, but every minute is worth it.

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Dannah Gresh: Are you pro-life or just anti-abortion? I'm Dannah Gresh, and this is Grounded, a production of Revive Our Hearts.

Portia Collins: And I am Portia Collins.

Erin: I'm Erin Davis. And here's why this episode matters. You're going to hear from two guests, each with a unique perspective on what it means to celebrate life. I'm going to tell you, they might not be the pro-life advocates you'd expect. Because being pro-life goes beyond the topic of abortion. We've heard a lot about abortion this month. And that's a good thing. We want to expand that conversation today. We want to equip you to think comprehensively about what is really our nation's most divisive issue. 

Dannah: That's right. I don't think we can say we're pro-life and not submit to God's plans for us and His plans to bless life, from womb to tomb. There's a whole lot of space in the middle, a lot of decisions in-between, and we've got to apply our pro-life biblical filter to everything. 

Erin: Yeah, I couldn't agree more. Although, I had not thought about it ever until my own mom started to have dementia. I'm fond of saying, I think I've even said here on Grounded, that dementia is the pro-life pause. No one marches for you holding signs and saying we're pro-life on that topic, but it sure is.

Portia: That is true. 

Dannah: You have got that right. That is powerful. Pro-life issues, no one marches for as an adoptive mom. I think adoption is really honored and blessed, but I don't see a lot of marches for that option. 

And I guess I think another pro-life issue that nobody marches for is the view we have of large families.

Erin: Whoa, I’m with ya.

Dannah: Okay, so hear me out a little bit. Let me talk through this. I was talking with a girlfriend, she at the time had three kids, maybe two kids, and she was on birth control. She told me something that I can't forget—this was years ago. She said, “Every day when I take that little pill, I feel like I'm giving God the finger.” 

Erin: Oh, that’s a strong statement. 

Dannah: Very strong.

Portia: Very strong statement. 

Dannah: Now, I want to go on the record of saying I don't know that birth control is unequivocally wrong. Many think birth control is an issue of Christian liberty. So, I'm not commenting on that per se today. But my friend realized that she and her husband had never taken time to ask God about how many children they wanted to have. They never prayed about it. And for my friend, she came to realize I am opposing God when I take that pill because God had planted a desire in her heart for more children. She wanted more children, so did her husband. But they were letting their fears of financial burdens override just the desire God had placed in their hearts. And listen to me hear the other thing she told me, that they were afraid of was being one of those families. 

Erin: Oh, I am one of those families. We’ve got a big Ford Transit at my house—the 12-passenger van, and people love to make comments on it. 

Dannah: Erin Davis is one of those families. Okay. Well, my friend told me several months later, when she was pregnant again, off birth control, pregnant again. She said, “For me letting God be in control the number of children I have is a pro-life issue.”

Portia: Oh, wow. Well, we’ve got a lot to digest there. Okay, Dannah. Thankfully, Jenny Summers is here today.

Dannah: I know she is. She's my friend. 

Portia: I know, I have heard. 

Dannah: I love her. 

Portia: Oh, that's so sweet. I love you guys' friendship. Well, Jenny was not an unwed teen mother. When she found out that she was being confronted with an unplanned pregnancy at the time, get this, she was married. And she already had not one, not two, but six babies. Okay. 

Erin: She was driving the big, old van, too. 

Portia: She was driving the big, old van. And her story I'm sure will encourage us to look at large families from a pro-life perspective. 

Erin: I love it. I can't wait to hear from her.

Dannah: And this morning a Grounded favorite, Dr. Kathryn Butler, is back with us. 

Erin: We’ve been wanting to get her back since the last time we had her on here.

Dannah: I know. I got to interview her. If you weren't with us, the last time she was here, you missed something awesome. She is a former trauma surgeon who now writes about life and death from a biblical point of view. I believe her wisdom is going to help us approach medical and end-of-life decisions from a very pro-life perspective.

Erin: There are a lot of those decisions that nobody marches for. So, we are excited to talk about this episode. And listen, if you are a Grounded every week-er, you're probably going like, “Did we talk about this last week?” We did. But we talked about it a little different way. It was a really powerful episode. I'm still so proud of you for sharing your own pro-life stories. Women have been commenting and sharing how meaningful that was. We'll drop the link in case you missed it. I really do think it's a must watch and a must share. But the bottom line for both of these episodes is this: to follow Jesus is to value life.

And so, we want to keep talking about this topic. We want you to continue to be part of the conversation. So if you're watching live, step up to the chat right now. That's how you communicate with us. I want you to share your thoughts on this thing we've been talking about so far. What are the pro-life issues that nobody marches for? What comes to your mind when you hear that statement? I want you to share it in the chat. Before we talk with our guests, we want to hear from you, and we need some good news.

Dannah: We do!

Good News: Science & Faith (9:57)

Erin: I get to be the good news storyteller today, which I love. I want to start with a quick story. This isn’t our good news. But it's just a story from my life, which is that I am a twin. I have a twin sister; her name is Nikki. And because of ultrasound technology that was available (it was starting to be new when we were in our Mama's belly) they were able to look and tell her, “Hey, you're having twins.” 

And so, my mom was prepared, she prepared the cutest little rainbow-themed nursery. I don't remember it. But I've seen the pictures with two little white cribs in there. And that's where my sister and I were brought home. Although as twins, we didn't like being in those separate cribs, she ended up putting us both together in the same crib for many months. 

Now, what's interesting is that my mom is also a twin, that almost never happens. But my mom was born in the 50s and ultrasounds were not commonly used then. So, her mama, my grandma did not know she was having twins. I love this delivery room story. She delivered baby number one, who's my aunt Rhonda. And then the doctor said, “Another baby is coming.” Imagine going into the hospital in labor thinking you're going to bring home one baby. And in fact, you're going to bring home two babies! 

Now, my favorite part of the story is that when the doctor said that another baby is coming, my grandpa passed out cold because he didn't know how many babies he was even going to have, and then all of a sudden, double the blessing. So, try to picture that as a pregnant woman. You don't even know how many babies you're carrying, much less your baby's gender, or have any idea of what the baby looked like in there. I'm telling you this sweet family story because a shift is happening. 

It has been caused by new technologies. Here's an interesting headline. I just read it last week, and I think we can celebrate it as our good news this morning. The headline says: “Science Is Giving the Pro-Life Movement A Boost.” That doesn't come from a Christian publication. That's from mainstream news. And what's happening is that many people are noticing the science. The progress we're seeing is rapid and is dramatically altering the debate around abortion. 

Now, the reason we talked about abortion so much in January is because that's when the United States Supreme Court decided Roe vs. Wade, that famous case that made abortion legal here in the United States. And the information of the day when Roe vs. Wade was decided was that a baby wasn't viable until 28 weeks. They had limited imaging technology. And so that made it a little easier to imagine that the child in the womb was just a bunch of tissue. 

But now doctors have found ways to help babies who are delivered much sooner than that 28-week mark. Because of the advancements in ultrasound technology, you can now have a 3D or a 4D ultrasound of your baby. This means parents can see their baby smile and clap and suck their thumb. 

Doctors and scientists now believe that unborn babies can feel pain, even in the very earliest stages of pregnancy—even before that so-called “point of viability.” I put that in quotes because we're viable when the Lord creates us, then we are viable. 

So, the world record set for earliest born surviving preemies goes to Curtis Means. He was born in 2020. During the pandemic, and get this, at nineteen weeks, look at that little feller laying on his Mama's chest. 

He weighed only 420 grams, that's 14.8 ounces, less than one pound. Curtis is now a year-and-a-half old. He survived; he has life. 

So due to advances in technology and testing, parents can now know if their baby is a boy or girl in just 10 weeks. That technology was only available for my baby number four, they said you're having another boy. And I said, “I don't think that test works.” But it did. And I had another boy. And that proves that babies in utero are not lumps of tissue. They have a gender; they have an identity. They are, as Scripture tells us, being knit together in their mother's womb. 

As I'm talking, we're going to show you some amazing ultrasound images. It would be hard to look at these and decide that's not life. There's a baby giving the thumbs up in the womb. And that article I mentioned before, well it said this, listen carefully. This is really the heartbeat of our good news: “New science is instilling a sense of awe that we have never really had before at any point in human history.” Look at that baby's profile in and out of the womb. 

Well, a sense of awe for human life. This is the medical community saying this. That is pretty amazing news. One of the things I've been paying attention to in this pandemic world we live in is that it seems like science and faith are always being pitted against each other as polar opposites. And here, science is confirming that life is life. And it matters. 

I just love it when science catches up with God's Word. Every 3D ultrasound picture, every prenatal blood test, every advancement in neonatal care, they're all telling the same story—that life is a gift from God, even when that life is being carried in a mama's womb. And that friends, that's our good news this Monday morning.

Portia: Yes, it is. Oh, such good news. Thank you so much, Erin. Well, have you ever looked at a large family and wonder, Doesn't that couple know what causes that? We hear jokes like that all the time. And honestly, our puns reveal a lack of pro-life perspective. 

Grounded with Jenny Summers: Large Families (23:53)

Well, it's time to getgrounded with God's people. Jenny Summers is the director of a pregnancy resource center in Pennsylvania. This pregnancy resource clinic is one of the fastest growing clinics in the United States, serving a community with a big 10 University. So welcome, Jenny.

Jenny Summers: Thank you for having me.

Portia: So glad to have you. Okay, listen, Dannah tells me two things. She's already kind of let me know early on that she loves you like crazy and that you are the best DPC director in the country and that you have an awesome and big family. Tell me, how many children do you have?

Jenny: I have eight and one in heaven. So, eight here on earth.

Portia: Good deal. Well, Jenny, do you ever get the jokes about having a big family? I'm pretty sure you look like a lady who has some pretty good comebacks. What are your comebacks?

Jenny: Yeah, we hear, do you know what causes that? Do you have cable? Or is this something you always planned? And, do you know what causes it? My husband always says, “Yes, and we like it.” He does a really good job at quieting people with kind of smart remarks. I like to say we are so, so blessed and so thankful.

Portia: Absolutely, absolutely. Well, as the director of a crisis pregnancy center, it's not always the single, young woman who is faced with an unplanned pregnancy. In fact, you yourself experienced that. Tell us about it. Tell us about your experience.

Jenny: Several of my pregnancies were unplanned. I think my husband wanted two, and I thought maybe four or five children would be wonderful. But when I was a mother of six, I found out that I was pregnant with number seven unexpectedly. I have had pain in my neck for about 20 years now. I went to all summer long for physical therapy. I needed to do that in order to build a case to have an MRI. I went one day to have the MRI. I was asked if I was nursing or if I was pregnant. I was at the time nursing my sixth child, he was nine months old at the time. I couldn't quite answer the paperwork. I didn't realize this, but I was really paused.

The Holy Spirit paused me, and I became very thoughtful. My cycle was not late. I didn't have reason to believe that I was pregnant. But I had a stirring a pause, and really struggled to fill out the paperwork. And then the lady, the technicians said, would you like a pregnancy test? And I said, “No, I don't have any reason to believe that I'm pregnant.” She asked me some more questions. 

And I said, “Well, what would happen if I had the MRI and I was pregnant?” and she said, “Well, with X-ray, you could possibly abort. And with an MRI, there's no way to protect any certain part of your body.”

And I thought, Well, if I was pregnant, why would I want to do something that would harm a baby. Again, I didn't have any reason to believe that I was pregnant at the time. I was meeting faithfully with a natural family practitioner to understand my body and my cycle, understand our fertility—it's not just my fertility, it's mine and my husband's. She sent me for a pregnancy test. And she came back and asked me more questions. 

She said, “So is this your sixth baby?”

I said, “Yes. It's my sixth baby. I'm nursing my sixth baby. He's nine months old.” And I thought, Oh, if you were to tell me, I'm pregnant again . . .

She left the room. She said, “It's taking longer than normal.” And she came back in the room with another coworker and said, “I have some news for you. You are pregnant.”

And I was completely stunned and started crying and screaming and saying, “How? This is impossible!” I was yelling, kind of uncontrollably, uncontrollable, and she came up to me. Yeah, she grabbed my shoulders and got in my face, and said, “You are so blessed.” 

And I said, “I don't feel blessed.” 

Portia: So, that makes me ask, at what point did your heart finally surrender to God's plan for the size of your family?

Jenny: I would say that I'm still surrendering my heart. I'm 45, I'll be 46 next month. I think it's for me a daily decision to submit my body which is a living sacrifice, and also our fertility to the Lord. I've never said that I think I'm doing it right or that somebody else is doing it wrong. However they decide between husband and wife and God to determine the size of their family, but I know that my heart is, I want to do this part of my life well. 

It's a regular conversation I have with the Lord, and it's really hard. It's a conversation that we don't have very often in our Christian circles with our sisters in Christ on how to live out this part of our life. I want to be open to the Lord's blessings, short of Him destroying my fertility through disease or any other matter. I believe that I've done well. It took me a few pregnancies to learn to not reject my child from the time I found out that I'm pregnant. So, with Anna Kate, who was our seventh child, when I found out that I was pregnant with our eighth child, Evelyn Grace, who is now four, I knew quickly on that I was pregnant with her. I kept that quiet and a secret.

Portia: Oh, beautiful family. 

Jenny: So there's Andrew, Austin, Aralia, Anthony, Asher, Abram, and Anna Kate, and Avelyn. Twenty down to four. 

Portia: I have a four-year-old too. So I can imagine the four year old is probably packing a punch that's as big as the rest of the family.

Jenny: Yes. Yes. 

Portia: Let me ask you this, as we kind of start winding down here. What Scripture did God use to help you submit to His plan for your life?

Jenny: I love Psalm 127:3, and the Message version says:

Don’t you see that children are God’s best gift?
   the fruit of the womb his generous legacy?
Like a warrior’s fistful of arrows
   are the children of a vigorous youth.
Oh, how blessed are you parents,
    with your quivers full of children!
Your enemies don’t stand a chance against you;
   you’ll sweep them right off your doorstep.

I know that God sees me. So when we still don't have enough room in our home for all of our children, or it feels like not enough money, our fridge is never empty. There's always food. Our friends went together about three years ago and all pitched in and bought us a 15-passenger van which was so kind and generous. Our little Mingo Ville, Pennsylvania neighborhood helps us raise up our kids, because we can’t do this alone, and our wonderful church family and my work family. I think being part of the ministry God's put me in a position where I have a bird's eye view to what this feels like. I'm just really thankful how He's chosen to write His story through my life.

Portia: Praise God. Praise God for that. Well, I want to ask you one more question. I want you to slip on your crisis pregnancy center director hat, okay? 

Jenny: Sure. 

Portia: A friend has just confided in us that she's experiencing an unplanned pregnancy. What is the number one thing we need to know to live out our pro-life mission in at that moment?

Jenny: Well, the number one thing is prayer. God knows. Praying about the situation is probably the most important thing you can do. And trust me, if you can share that information with another sister in Christ or pro-life friend, and hopefully there's a pregnancy center nearby that can help you. Even if you call them and say, “Look, I have a friend. What should I do?” They could probably schedule an appointment. There are pregnancy resource centers and clinics all over the country. We see unmarried and married women and mothers that are pregnant for the first time and mothers that are pregnant with their fifth or sixth or seventh. This is such a good resource. 

And to the church, I want abortion to be unthinkable like unimaginable. I think if we started with the church and helped one another, if they understood their value, that they matter . . . They matter because they're made in God's image, as it says in Genesis 1:27. If we start when they're young, hopefully good friends and family can instill the truth that God has a perfect plan for them. And, just give them time. Sometimes we make decisions out of fear, and we're hormonal. If we just gave ourselves some time, I think time is so precious in those first few weeks of pregnancy. So slow down, pray, and ask God for time, and call your local pregnancy resource clinic.

Portia: Love that. Love that good wisdom there. Very good wisdom. Jenny, thank you so much for being with us today. 

Jenny: You’re welcome

Portia: Oh, you have been a blessing to me and I'm sure many others. 

Jenny: God is good. 

Portia: Y’all Jenny is one of thousands of crisis pregnancy center directors in the United States and beyond. We encourage you to reach out to support a crisis pregnancy center near you today. 

Erin: Yes, we do. That is one way to show your pro-life. You know, as Jenny was talking about the things people say in public, with for boys, we hear it all the time, “Wow, your hands are full.” And the implication is, golly, you're out of your depth. Sometimes we are. But I really started thinking years ago about the impact that has on my sons’ hearts, to hear that everywhere we go.

So, I'm very quick to say yes. One of the things you can do to show that you're pro-life . . . This happens on occasion. Someone will come up to me in the grocery store and say you have the most beautiful children, and that just makes our day. But that's one way to be pro-life. Celebrate the mamas you see in the grocery store who probably do have their hands full. 

Grounded in the Word: Jonah 3:6–10 (37:08)

Well, really quickly, I want you to grab your Bible, and we are going to get grounded in God's Word before we hear from our next guest. We might be going somewhere you might not expect me to take us as we're talking about this topic, and that is the book of Jonah, specifically Jonah, chapter 3. 

Now, if you've been in church any length at all, you know the story of Jonah. I just read it to my boys last night as I was putting them to bed. Jonah was a prophet, and God told him go to Nineveh. He gave him this assignment: just give a really simple sermon. I want you to read the sermon yourself. It's right there in the book of Jonah. And it was just eight words. But the bottom line of Jonah's sermon was this: repent. And so, God called Jonah to call the Ninevites to repentance. 

Jonah went to great lengths to avoid that calling on his life, as some of us often go to great lengths to avoid the calling on our lives. You know, he spent three days in the belly of the fish. My son asked some interesting questions about that last night. Jonah was a stinker. He gets a bad rap, and he earns it for sure. Because at the end of the book, we still find him with a bad attitude. But I was reading it again, I think Jonah was actually a man of great faith. 

Now, why do I say that? Because Jonah knew that if he called the Ninevites to repentance and the Ninevites responded, that God would forgive them. I think that's why he was running, because he knew there was a really good chance that the Ninevites were going to experience grace, redemption, restoration, because he trusted that's who God is. And he didn't want them to experience those things. He didn't want the Ninevites to know grace. He wanted them to pay the price or their sin, but you can’t outrun God.

 So, Jonah did go to Nineveh, he did preach repentance. Let me read you Jonah 3:6-10. 

The word reached the king of Nineveh, and he arose from his throne, removed his robe, covered himself with sackcloth, and sat in ashes. And he issued a proclamation and published through Nineveh, “By the decree of the king and his nobles: Let neither man nor beast, herd nor flock, taste anything [he was calling to a fast, a nation of fasting]. Let them not feed or drink water, but let man and beast be covered with sackcloth, and let them call out mightily to God. Let everyone turn from his evil way and from the violence that is in his hands. Who knows? God may turn and relent and turn from his fierce anger, so that we may not perish."

When God saw what they did, how they turned from their evil way, God relented of the disaster that he had said he would do to them, and he did not do it.

That's exactly what Jonah was worried about. This was his worst nightmare. The Ninevites, who were his enemy, repented and turned to God. They entered into a period of fasting and mourning for their sin. And because God is a gracious God, they were spared. What does that have to do with being pro-life? Well, here's my question for us today. Do we have the same faith Jonah did? He was absolutely convinced that God could change the hardest of hearts. 

Do a little historical research about the Ninevites. They had hard hearts and Jonah trusted that God could change those hard hearts. He knew that the people who turned to Him would be saved. 

Here's my question for us: Do we believe that God can do that again? January 22 marked the 49th anniversary of Roe vs. Wade. Do we have the faith, Christian women, that the 49th anniversary was the last anniversary of Roe vs. Wade that will ever be celebrated?

Do we still believe that God can change hard hearts? Do we believe that He can and will call those who do not see the Bible as the source of truth to Himself? Do we believe that He can turn people's hearts to this idea that life is precious? Do we really believe God can call them to repentance? 

Do we pray for those who commit abortions? The doctors, the nurses, the medical staff who perform abortions day after day, do we believe God can work in their lives? Do we pray for Him to do it? 

Do we pray for those who are abortion minded themselves? Maybe this is a cause they marched for? Do we pray for those who advocate for abortion to have their hearts turn? Do we pray for those who determine the laws on this issue? And if we do, do we believe God can do something about it? Do we believe He can cause them to mourn for their sin and cry out to Him to forgive them? 

Do we really trust the Lord to bring revival on this issue? Or do we feel like that ship has sailed? And our society is too far gone? And we're going to continue to kill babies in the womb until Christ comes?

Do we believe that God can make this a people who treasure life because we've experienced new life in Christ? Or have we made up our minds this is the way it's always gonna be?

I read a headline just this morning that said this, “On the 49th Anniversary of Roe vs. Wade, Could It Be the Last?” It wasn't a Christian headline. The article went on to say that abortion clinics are preparing for the legalization of abortion to be overturned in our day as soon as this summer, in fact. If those who perform abortions have faith that abortion laws will be reversed in 2022, do we as God's people have that same faith? 

I want us to pray just a minute like we do. Jesus, You are a God of grace, and no one is too far gone for You. Help us to trust that You can change hearts on this issue, that You can make us a society, a world that values life. Help us to pray that way. Help us to pray for those who don't think like we do. Help us trust that You can call them to repentance and forgive them and forgive them and forgive them and forgive them and invite them in. We love You. Give us courage on this issue. In Your name I pray, amen. Dannah. 

Grounded with Dr. Kathryn Butler: End of Life Care (43:33)

Dannah: Thank you so much, Erin. Well, we are getting so many wonderful comments from you. I have to just share a few. First of all, a lot of them are snowbirds because part of the United States is covered in snow right now. And they're saying things like Peggy: “A pro-life issue that I think nobody marches for is people with conditions like Down syndrome.” I would wholeheartedly agree. Kathy says “I agree, the elderly and those that suffer with dementia and Alzheimer's are an issue that I don't see people marching for.” Arlene says, “Euthanasia.” 

Which brings me to our next guest, and we even have a comment about her. Cindy is so excited that our guest is Dr. Kathryn Butler. She says, “Dr. Butler's book is the tool God is using in our lives right now as we navigate my husband's stage four cancer. Thank you, beloved servant of God.” 

Well, earlier we heard that technological advances are helping us to convince people that babies are viable before 40 weeks. But Dr. Kathryn Butler reminds us that we even have technology to keep them alive earlier and earlier. And medical technology is what's making some of the decisions like Cindy and others are facing. Some of those decisions are more complicated by medical technology, and some of them are more comforting because of technology. Which brings us confusion sometimes.

When a loved one is in the ICU or nearing the end of life, we have to ask questions like do we have the right to keep someone alive when they would not be without extra support? Or is that God's right? 

Dr. Kathryn Butler is a former ICU physician. She wants to equip you to be ready to grapple with life prolonging decisions with peace and discernment. Welcome, Dr. Butler, I should say welcome back.

Dr. Kathryn Butler: Good morning. Dannah, thank you so much for having me.

Dannah: You know, I want to ask you this question. Before we begin talking about the ICU and decisions, I hear that you came out of retirement in 2020, and you jumped back into the medical field to join the brave healthcare workers on the frontline of the pandemic. As I heard that and read about that, I wondered, what made you do that?

Dr. Butler: Well, in April of 2020, when the pandemic first struck in Boston, we had a really profound surge of cases very quickly and our hospitals were overrun. It was early in the pandemic. Ie didn't know much about containment or even how infectious this was, we just didn't know much about COVID at all. 

Dannah: Yeah.

Dr. Butler: We were struggling with a scarcity of resources in intensive care. And so, to give you an example, the hospital where I used to work was Mass General. We normally are a big hospital ICU wise. We normally have a capacity of about 100 ICU beds, which is big. But we had at the peak of the surge in April 2020, we had 200 ICU beds just for COVID patients.

Dannah: Wow.

Dr. Butler: We had to convert recovery rooms, and bring anesthesia machines because we didn't have enough ventilators. We would bring them out of the operating room. So, in that setting, our governor was asking physicians to come out of retirement and help because we needed double the amount of ICU physicians. And out of stewardship, knowing I've retired because the Lord had drawn me home to shepherd my kids and to homeschool them. But He also had equipped me with this skill set that was in dire need at the time. 

I had reached out to my colleagues and said, “How you doing?” 

And they said, “Not well.” 

And yeah, I did go back, and I was just putting my finger in the dike. To be clear, I mean, those who have been on the frontlines for the long haul are the ones we really need to celebrate. But I worked nights in the ICU during the surge until the cases started to come down just to try to help because out of stewardship. God had given me the skill set, and I couldn't sit back when it was needed.

Dannah: Thank you for doing that. I think it's an opportunity, as you mentioned, to thank those who have been in this for the long haul for almost two years now. And many of them are growing weary. 

If you're one of those health care workers or you love someone who is and you're welcoming them home tired every night, I just want to pause and say, “Thank you. What you're doing is a pro-life issue. Nobodies marching for it. But you're out there caring for people.” 

All right, take us to the ICU. Kathryn, take us to a time when you witnessed a family or an individual facing the surprising, unplanned, very complicated task of making decisions about life support, can you tell us a story?

Dr. Butler: Oh, my goodness, these are so common, unfortunately. Because the ICU is such a foreign place to our day-to-day life. And so often, if someone comes in sick, there's a whole battery of things that's done to them. And then, they're in this situation, potentially, of if they're at the end of life, and they're sick from something that's not recoverable, being on a whole army of machines, and loved ones wondering what to do. 

I mean, I can think of right off the bat, a woman for I cared for her husband. He was struggling with the after effects and complications of surgery that was very complicated. And coming into the hospital, he already was dealing with the end stages of multiple chronic illnesses. So, his kidneys were already failing when he came in. He was debilitated to the point before he came into the hospital where the things that he loved to do that infused his life with meaning . . . He was a Christian. He would read the Bible, and he would go to church. He couldn't do them anymore because he was at the end of life, and he was dying. 

And she knew very clearly that he would not want to continue with measures like a ventilator, if there was no hope for recovery for him. But in the moment at the bedside, how do you make that decision? She was being pressured at the time by a surgeon who did not want to say, let's switch to comfort measures, because he felt that this tremendous burden that we needed to keep going.

These kinds of dilemmas are so common, because we may know our hopes and dreams and be able to proclaim that hope in Christ every Sunday when we're well. We can attend service and sing the hymns and read the Scripture. But suddenly, when we're at the bedside of someone we love, and there is a ventilator keeping him or her alive, and we don't understand the situation about whether or not they can recover. All those kinds of questions about life and death and our hope in Christ that supersedes it all just becomes so murky. And what do you do? 

Dannah: Yeah. Oh, take us into the Scripture. What Scripture do we consider, because it is confusing? You may be getting different advice from two different doctors. They may be on polar opposite ends of this. We've got to go to the Word of God. And we've got to go and pray to the Holy Spirit for wisdom and advice. So, what Scripture do we consider in the Bible when we're in that situation, when we have decisions to make, should the unthinkable happen tomorrow in our family? 

Dr. Butler: Right, right. So I may have talked about this during the last time I was on, but I think if you look at Scripture, there are four principles that arise from the whole narrative of the Bible for we who are in Christ, because of what He's done for us. The first, as we've been talking about so clearly in this episode is life is sacred. God gives us life as a gift, our lives belong to Him. We're commanded to cherish life through the 10 Commandments, and Moses on Mount Sinai. But also He also has authority over our life and death. 

And so, death comes to all of us we see. Our times are in His hands, the Scripture tells us. And so while we're called to cherish life, the reality is that all of us will die, because it's the wages of our sin. He has authority over the timing of that. 

And these two concepts sometimes can be really hard to tease out at the bedside. And the key thing to talk with a physician about when you're trying to make decisions for a loved one is the underlying issue causing a threat to life, something that's recoverable. Because if it's something that we can give antibiotics for the pneumonia, we can do temporary dialysis to bring fluid off the lungs, and they can recover, then those are life saving measures. 

Dannah: Right. 

Dr. Butler: The difference is if the underlying issue is, say, metastatic lung cancer for which we have no cure, or end stage emphysema that's out of medication options. The measures that we employ are actually prolonging the dying process, and potentially worsening suffering through it. 

So, looking to the fact that life is a gift that we're called to cherish, but also that death comes to all of us. We don't have to despair at death because of what Christ has done for us at the cross. 

Dannah: Amen.

Dr. Butler: We can then have peace and to speak with the doctors about what is it that's causing the underlying threat to life and tease out: are the measures life saving or death prolonging in this scenario?

Dannah: You said something really important there. And it's this, that because of the cross, as believers, we can look at these decisions differently. And we should look at these decisions differently. It's really a testimony that we believe the gospel when we consider that for us to live is gain, but to die as Christ. So that person that we're loving, if they know Jesus, why would we keep them from being in the presence of the one who loves us the very most? 

Now, I have one more question I want to ask you, because I'm, I don't like to say my age, but here I go. I'm 54. So, Lord willing, I'm gonna be here a long time to enjoy grandbabies and family members we haven't even met yet. But I'm one of the majority of Americans who's never communicated my beliefs about end-of-life care to my children, to my husband. How important is it that we talk to our loved ones about what we believe and how we would like decisions to be made if we end up needing heroic measures to stay alive?

Dr. Butler: It's vital. As hard as these conversations are because no one wants to talk about death. There's no quicker way to end the conversation over dinner than to bring up death. But the matter is that the vast majority of us 75% of us will not be able to vouch for ourselves at the end of life, either because we'll be on technology that will take away our voice, or our illness itself will leave us unable to communicate. So, in 75% of cases, our loved ones are going to be making those decisions for us. Yet, only about 1/4 of Americans have an Advanced Directive, giving our loved ones head of time guidance so that they're not left struggling. 

It's actually the loving thing to give those who are in some kind of guidance, because studies have actually shown that people who watched their loved ones passed away in the ICU and you have to make decisions, struggle for up to a year afterwards with complicated grief with depression, with anxiety, even with post-traumatic stress disorder, because the weight and the burden is so heavy in making these decisions. 

So, we have hope in Christ, and it's a gift to be able to tell our family, “This is what I would have you do. And please know no matter what, I'm with the Lord. You need not despair. I want you to have the same hope that I do, even in death.”

Dannah: Wow. When you put, put it that way, it's such a comfort, isn't it, for us to have these conversations with our family, or even take a piece of paper out and pin them down so that they can be alleviated of some of the guilt and symptoms of grief, at least to a degree. Dr. Kathryn Butler, if I were in the ICU, I would want you to be my attending physician, because you speak with such tenderness, and so saturated with the truth of the gospel. Thank you for being with us once again today.

Dr. Butler: Thank you so much. It's a pleasure.

Dannah: Dr. Kathryn Butler is the author of Between Life and Death: A Gospel-Centered Guide to End of Life Medical Care, hope you'll grab a copy of that. And I also hope you'll take her up on, I guess, an informal homework assignment. And that is to think through what would you want your loved ones to do if they had decisions to make? Maybe take some time to talk to them about it this week.

I'll tell you that is certainly a pro-life issue that no one is marching for. 

Wow, what a great program we had today. Lots of food for thought. I want to read one viewer comment and alleviate some guilt. Can I do that? 

Erin: Sure.

Dannah: I just feel I feel like I need to do this. 

Erin: Since we’re here to give hope away, we don’t want to miss this. 

Dannah: That's right. Deb wrote, “I haven't really thought about the large family aspect of her life. I'm guilty of making comments in large families. Ugh, I'm embarrassed to now think of it as a pro-life issue. God forgive me.” So, I want to say God doesn't need to forgive you, Deb. We forgive you. He forgives you if you feel like you need that. 

But the jokes are funny. I will say this. They're kind of like blonde jokes I get to make, you don't. And Erin gets to make big family jokes. Jenny gets to make the big family jokes. So, let's enjoy the jokes, but let's not do it in the absence of affirming and blessing the beauty of those big families. Amen. 

Portia: Yeah.

Erin: Yeah, tell some mama in a grocery store that she has beautiful children. Yes, it makes a big difference. 

Something we're all prone to in this era where life itself seems to be up for debate is compassion fatigue. We're focusing on compassion all month long here at Revive Our Hearts. Specifically, we want to look at Jesus' compassion toward us. Because when you understand God's compassionate heart toward you, you'll begin to move toward Him and toward others with confidence in His love.

With your gift of any amount this month, we want to bless you with a copy of the booklet Uncommon Compassion: Revealing the Heart of God. I had the privilege to write this little booklet. Within its pages, you'll trace the compassion of Jesus through the Bible and see that the Lord is so compassionate toward you. His mercies toward you are tender.

Visit ReviveOurHearts.com and request your copy of Uncommon Compassion today. Then hurry back next week. We'll be watching Dannah's favorite episode about finding Jesus in the middle of your pain.

Let's wake up with hope and perspective together next week on Grounded. 

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