What Not to Say to Your Friend Who’s Sick, with Colleen Chao

What does the Bible really teach about physical healing? Grounded guest Colleen Chao is currently battling terminal cancer. Hear what words help (and which don’t) in this honest conversation. 

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Episode Notes

"She Laughs at the Time to Come" video

"When Faith Meets Trials" video 

In the Hands of a Fiercely Tender God book by Colleen Chao

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Dannah Gresh: Cancer. Stage four. Terminal. Is it possible to have hope and perspective when you hear those words? I'm Dannah Gresh, and this is Grounded.

Portia Collins: And I'm Portia Collins. What would you say if it was your friend or sister who heard those words from a doctor? What shouldn't you say? Well, trust me on this, you don't want to wait until someone you love gets the devastating news that they have a terminal illness before you get rooted and grounded in what God's Word really teaches about suffering.

Dannah: So true, Portia. Colleen Chao is with us. She's heard those words, stage four cancer, as doctors announced it was terminal. And she's been in a brutal fight against that cancer for more than five years. From the valley of the shadow of death, God has taught her some profound lessons. She's going to share them with us today, including how we can offer real biblical hope and perspective to those facing heart things.

Portia: Amen. She is a joy and has been such an encouragement to me in my own life in my own illnesses and things like that, so I can't wait for me to hear from her today. We've been playing a video of Colleen’s journey that our Revive Our Hearts team assembled. We're not going to take the time to unpack all the backstory this morning. But let me encourage you to follow the link that we're going to drop in the episode notes and in the chat. Watch this is share this video. The way that Colleen has responded to such deep suffering is truly a rare jewel, and she is a rare jewel as well. 

But first, we need some good news this morning. And I know the perfect person to bring it to us. Erin Davis, are you ready?

Erin Davis: I’m here. I'm ready. We have a group text when we do an episode like this, and girls, what we just dropped in the group texts I already have goosebumps, for real. This is gonna be a powerful episode. I'm glad I get to kick us off with some good news. Here's a question—really the question of the day: How does God respond to those who are suffering?

It might be medical suffering as we're going to focus on today. But we know there are many brands of suffering. So, that's the question I hope we're going to have an answer for. I hope we don't just sit around and talk about suffering. I hope we walk out of here with true hope and perspective by the time this episode is over. 

In fact, I hope that we can flip the script entirely on suffering. I believe we can because that's what I see in Scripture—only in Scripture. There's plenty of places other than God's Word that are trying to wrestle with human suffering. Only in Scripture do I see it flipped through the lens of redemption and hope. 

So, I've got a good news story that I think is going to help us flip that script. When I say US/Mexico border, what comes to mind? If you're watching this live, I'd love for you to answer that in the chat—US/Mexico border. What do you think of? What are the images that come to mind in your head?

Do you think of those throngs, those massive groups of people that we don't know the names and stories of that are just trying to get across the border? 

Do you think of those news stories that actually come across pretty frequently of people packed into box trucks, sometimes being discovered only after those people have perished in the heat? 

Do you think of border patrol agents and the massive assignment that's been given to them? 

Do you think of those disturbing images that we see of migrant caravans of children clinging to their parents, covered in filth? 

Yep. The border of our country here in the United States is a place of suffering right now. But did you know this? It is also a place of hope. A couple named Banda and Zeta (and I hope that you two are watching and I hope I said your names close to correctly) . . . They were just two teachers living in Mexico, and they decided to move to a place called Scorpions Canyon in Tijuana, Mexico. 

Now, if Scorpions Canyon sounds like an inhospitable place, it is. There are no paved roads. There’s no sewage system. There's rampant crime. And in that place of the world, there are thousands of people right now trying to cross into the United States. 

But Banda had a dream—a literal dream. The Lord came to him in His sleep. We've talked some about that you're on Grounded, God's doing that all over the globe. And in that dream, he felt that the Lord said, “Banda, move you and your family to Scorpions Canyon and build a church.” And he did it. He began serving the poor and needy in his community, and then the needy started to come to Him. 

Here's a quote from Banda. He said, “It started with migrants coming from Haiti, Africa, Pakistan, and the Middle East. Today, we mainly have people from El Salvador, Guatemala, Ecuador, Nicaragua, Colombia, and some from Mexico.” He said that it’s hard to tell, but he estimates about 35,000 people have come through his church.” He says easily 35,000 people have come through this little church. Right this very moment as you're hearing my voice over one thousand displaced, hungry, and suffering people are sleeping on the floor in Banda's church. They have nowhere else to go. 

And from Banda's church, they receive three meals a day, their kids get to go to school, they get some computer training, and they learn how to legally cross the border into the United States. His wife and the staff of that church help them legally cross the border. Banda said, “I know that I have only a little bit of time with them. So, my job is for them to know as much as they can about Jesus. I baptize them, and I send them to the United States believing in Jesus.”

I got goosebumps again. We like to bring you the stories that you don't see on the headlines in the headlines on Grounded. We try to write the headlines from the perspective that we share a lot here on Grounded, which is that heaven rules. So here is today's heaven rules Grounded headline: Wherever There Is Suffering, There Is a Savior. Thousands of people are on a difficult journey to a better life, and along the way they've discovered, thanks to Banda's obedience, the Giver of all life. And we think that's good news.

Dannah: Wow, what a beautiful good news story. Erin, I can't help but think that they headed towards that border hoping for a change in their life. And they got change that they never expected—change of all the good news of Jesus Christ in their lives.

Erin: Amen.

Dannah: Wow! Thanks, Erin. 

Well, we're gonna go ahead and get grounded in God's people. I've got to tell you that to know Colleen Chao is to love her. If you don't know her yet, you're about to fall in love. She has an infectious laugh, and a memorable smile. She's the wife to Eddie and mother to Jeremy. And she's also walking the long and difficult road of terminal cancer. Welcome back to Grounded dear Colleen.

Colleen Chao: Oh, thank you, my sweet friend. It's so great to be with you again.

Dannah: You know, today we're gonna learn how to minister to and practically encourage anyone suffering with chronic illness or terminal illness. I actually spent the weekend with a woman whose husband is dying of cancer. I've got to tell you sometimes it was just hard to know what to say. I was constantly hoping and praying. I would just say the Lord helped me say the right thing, helped me do the right thing. I know that there are a lot of us out there. Colleen, will you help us with that today?

Colleen: Oh, man, I have to say right up front that I am not an expert at this. And even though we're walking through this journey through terminal cancer, I struggle every time a friend shares hard news. I struggle, and I do the same thing that you did, “Lord, please give me wisdom, because every person is different.” Every circumstance is unique, right? 

So, I'm with you, just asking God for wisdom. I’ve muffed this up more than anyone is ever muffed up with me. So, I come at this just still learning.

Dannah: Thank you so much for that humility. And also, I guess we've got our first tip, which is: ask the Lord for wisdom when you're interacting with someone who's suffering. 

Well, take us back to when you first got your diagnosis. People started hearing for the first time, they start hearing that you're struggling with cancer. What are some of the things they did that were helpful?

Colleen: I say this all the time. We've been loved so well. We have had people come alongside and each person brings their unique gifts and heart. And so, we were surrounded by beautiful messages, prayers. Groceries dropped at the door, things sent via Amazon dropped on the doorstep. All kinds of people whisked my son away to give him joy and to do something fun with him so that he'd be out of the grief and stress for a little bit. We've been really well loved. So, I could go on and on. I've journaled a lot of it. 

Dannah: Yeah, I love that. And you are easy to love. So, I can imagine if I lived near you, I would definitely take your Jeremy somewhere fun. And I would bring you some of my famous chicken soup recipe. 

Colleen: I’ll take it.

Dannah: Well, I know that you've probably heard some things or some things have been done that weren't helpful. Could you candidly share some of the things that hurt more than helped?

Colleen: You know, one that has really kind of risen to the top is when people have told me, if I just have more faith, then I can be healed. And it’s that health and wealth type of gospel that is, to me, it doesn't even sniff of Jesus. From what I see in Scripture, that, to me, feels like they're robbing me of what Jesus is doing. And I say that living in a tension. 

So, I would love to experience healing, I would love to just live longer than we think it is going to be. My husband prays every day for a miracle. And it just means the world to me that he's still praying for that miracle. 

But so, we've got that side where God could do that. He could pull that off. But then, on the other hand, I believe that this is from God's hands, whether He gives me another few months or a year or several years. This is from the hand of God. And I see it all over Scripture—like all over Scripture.

Dannah: Tell us about that. 

Colleen: It's especially in the New Testament. We see hints of it in the Old Testament, Psalm 73. You know, the description of the wicked—their life is easy, they don't have affliction. And David is like, “Man, I'm afflicted all day long. I'm punished every morning. Yet I am always with You. Your presence is my good. I have nothing on earth besides You, nothing in heaven besides You.” 

And so, he's saying, “Man, I see this easy life. But what I'm experiencing here is the presence of God, which is for my good, my greatest good.” And then we move into the New Testament, and it's saturated with this idea of my goal is to know Christ. And that means sharing in the fellowship of His sufferings. To know Christ is to experience suffering with Him. And every day we carry around the death of Jesus in our bodies so that the life of Jesus may also be displayed in our bodies. 

I mean, we could go on and on, Moses chose to suffer with the people of God. He chose that because he knew that there was greater, greater wealth with Jesus than all the treasures of Egypt. I have lists of these Scriptures that are just rich with the beauty of suffering with Jesus. So, when people come along . . .

Dannah: They're a great comfort to you.

Colleen: They really are. Because they point toward what is my ultimate goal. It is eternal realities. And so, whatever happens in this temporary fragment of time . . . It's gonna go down fast for all of us. And so, whether we live 20 years or 90, it's going fast. This is not the permanent resident. 

So, my hope is in what's to come. No matter what, what happens on this side, that's coming fast, and that will last forever. So, I think that's where I've struggled with people who absolutely believe that God's will is to not have me suffer. Because what I'm experiencing in Christ through suffering, is that's my good. You know, there's joy in His presence. Psalm 16 says, maybe He will remove it miraculously, but to assume we know what God wants is, that's arrogant. That's not the Jesus I see in Scripture. He could do that, right?

Dannah: He could. So, you're talking about a theology of suffering—a rich and beautiful thing that I think so many of us don't really want to dive into. But the Scriptures also teach us about a theology of healing. So, as you walk in the suffering, how do you reconcile verses like, James 5:15, which says that the prayer of faith will save the one who is sick, and the Lord will raise him up? How do you how do you navigate that tightrope of the suffering and the possibility that the Lord could heal you?

Colleen: It's interesting, because I've been struck a lot by psalms where it says, “You spared me from going down to the grave so that I could continue to praise you.” There are a lot of psalms like that that actually go along with that James scripture. What I've kind of reconciled before Jesus, if there can be a reconciling, because we live in mystery. We live in tension and mystery. We're dealing with things we don't understand. With our finite brains, we're trying to make sense of infinite realities.

So, as much as I can reconcile before Jesus, we all die one day. And so, one day every one of us will not be healed. There will be a time where God doesn't kill the 99-year-old that just dies of old age or the 70-year-old. Like, all of us, none of us leave the planet alive, as someone said. I love that. So, there is a time where God is not going to keep us from death, unless he comes back in our lifetime. 

So, in that sense, it says my times are in Your hand. Oh, God, my times are in His hand. And so, if He doesn't heal me right now, it’s so weighty with glory. That's at stake for me to go early. It brings me back to 2 Corinthians 4:17, this light momentary affliction is all working this glory, weighty infinite gifts, rewards, glory, that will make sense on the other side of why my time might be cut short. 

And the other perspective is, I'm not dying at 21 years old. Like, I can look at it from a variety of ways, right? I have made it to 46. What a gift. That's amazing. I want more. I want more time.

Dannah: I want it for you. 

Colleen: I love that so much friend. And so yeah, I rest in the fact that if God allows suffering, if He takes me early, it is because there's something so good going on that it has to come. It's like Jesus on the cross for the joy set before Him. He endured the cross and He asked us to pick up our cross. It might not be cancer. Yeah, He could heal me miraculously. And then there are other sufferings He's still gonna allow in my life. I'm still gonna have to take up my cross daily. 

Dannah: So, right. Yeah.

Colleen: This is part of our daily reality for all of us.

Dannah: That's right. You know, something that's really helped me walk that tightrope of suffering versus healing when I'm walking with a friend who is experiencing terminal illness is the realization I had when I came to 1 Corinthians 12. It talks about the gifts, Paul writes, there's a lot of gifts, but the same Spirit. And each gift is given for the common good. In verse 9 it says another gift of healing by the one Spirit, and it's plural gifts of healing.

And when I started really diving into that, and thinking about it, I thought, healing requires interrelationship of several gifts. Yes, faith that healing can and will happen if the Lord wills. But sometimes the gift we bring of healing is mercy, to weep with and sit with and feel the impact with that our tears meet with the tears of our friends. Or it could be the spiritual gift of helps—making that chicken noodle soup or coming and cleaning the house or grabbing the preteen son and saying, “Let's take you up for air. Let's give you the day off from this grieving and do something fun.” 

Those are spiritual gifts of healing. When the disease is overpowering, we can still be agents of healing in someone's lives, how have helped and mercy been important in your journey, along with the faith that we hope that the Lord would do a miracle in your life.

Colleen: I love that, Dannah. What you're saying is just explosive with good. Yes, we have experienced deeper relationships, we've experienced more sweetness in our marriage, we've experienced a richness in parenting, showing us some eternal realities that we could not otherwise because of the gifts of people coming around us and showing who they are. 

Because suffering surfaces who we are. It presses up to the surface what we're made of and my best friends and my family. It's just beautiful to watch. People who use the gifts God's given them, like you're saying, the heart He's given them to enter in and do beautiful, beautiful things. And all of us are knit even more tightly together. I mean, that's incredible. Only Jesus can do that through a traumatic journey.

Dannah: Yeah, I love it. You know, Colleen, I have been watching you walk this road. And I kind of I think that if I was given a limited time to live, I'd probably spend it doing some of the things on my bucket list. Traveling some of the places I wanted to see, spending every waking moment with my grandchildren and children. Maybe I do those things in tandem, I take them with me on these trips. But you have spent much of your time writing a new book. The title is In the Hands of a Fiercely Tender God. I'm wondering, tell us about the burden God put on your heart that you would use this precious time in your life to write that book.

Colleen: Yeah, it's amazing. After I got my terminal diagnosis, and because of COVID and other situations at the time, I got that news myself and walked back to my car myself. And in those moments alone with God, where it's just startling, right? It's life-changing. Everything's upside down.

In those moments, I almost audibly heard the voice of God, “I want you to write.” I'm not saying that that was special revelation. It’s just that my Spirit knew it in that moment. I had said, “I'm gonna wait until I'm 80 and wise to write a book.” And I'm like, here's my 80. Here's 80. 

So, I knew that God was giving me good work to do still, the work that He's prepared for me beforehand, that was not going to stop because of cancer. He was actually going to multiply the work that He wants me to do in this suffering. 

And to me, that meant everything to not just roll over and die, and not just grin and bear it. But to say, “Man, there are people to encourage, to come alongside to care for.” It's so motivating to me sometimes. That's what gets me up out of bed in the morning, when it's a really hard morning, to go, “Oh my word, this suffering matters for others.” 

And so, the opportunity to get to write some of my heart on pages to hopefully care for others who are in the thick of it, and in the dark days . . . I've tried to make it a gentle book, so it's not overwhelming. It's not a treatise on suffering, because I'm not an authority on suffering. But it’s just gentle words that I've learned along the way that I'm so privileged to pass along.

Dannah: Love that my friend. Thanks, Colleen Chao, for being with us today on Grounded. We continue to pray that the Lord would heal you. But we are so inspired by your theology of suffering and how you're living it out. Thank you, my friend.

Colleen: Thank you, you are a joy to me,

Dannah: We will drop a link for that book—In the Hands of a Fiercely Tender God. We hope you'll want it as much as we do. Portia, I toss it to you with a lot of hope brimming in my heart from another joy-filled conversation with Colleen Chao.

Portia: Absolutely. Oh, what a precious time you two had together. I don't know if anybody else feels this, but it just was so serene and calm . . .and just encouraging. So, I appreciate that. 

Well, Colleen is a living, breathing example to us of what it looks like to build your house up on the Rock. Whether it is suffering in your own life, or maybe in the life of someone that you love, your response will be determined by where you place your hope. And here's a short clip from Nancy DeMoss Wolgemuth on that.

Nancy DeMoss Wolgemuth: It's by that faith in the unseen that we can count it all joy, as James 1 tells us, when we meet trials of various kinds. For we know that the testing of our faith produces steadfastness. If you are banking your life on what is seen, then when your mate gets cancer, when your child has a terminal disease, when your mate says he doesn't love you anymore and doesn't want to be married to you anymore, when you lose your job, when you lose a trusted source of income, when your health fails and you get that terminal diagnosis; if you're living your life based on sight, then you will crater when it comes to these times of suffering and testing and trials and affliction. But if we will root our lives by faith in what is unseen, the promises of God, the character of God, the ways of God, then when these trials come, though we cannot see Him, we will trust Him. Though we cannot see His hand, we will trust His heart, and our lives will stand firm. We will be able to endure when the storms assail us. When they batter our houses, our houses will stand firm, because we're building our lives on the rock, that unseen Rock Christ Jesus. We will see Him. What now takes faith will one day be sight, then prayer will be praised and faith will be sight. But until then, we walk by faith and not by sight.

Erin: I'd love to be Nancy's living amen for what she just taught us. I am walking through a season of intense and prolonged suffering. And I'm not cratering because my hope is in that Lord who is gonna come for me soon and is going to redeem all of this. I've talked about this some on Grounded. I'm a private person by nature, talking publicly about the really hard stuff is uncomfortable for me. But you're my sisters and so I'll give you the real scoop. 

I've talked some about my mom's journey with Alzheimer's. And recently we've had another really hard step in that journey. And that is that we've had to move her into a memory care facility. It's a step that we never wanted to take. She's doing remarkably well. She amazes me. It's harder for us. 

All along this journey where the medical challenge is inside the body of someone I love, not inside my own body, people have said many unhelpful things along the way. Just this weekend, we had an event happening in our town and I was just walking the streets with my kids. And somebody ran up to me and said something so hurtful . . . and she didn't mean to. She was trying to express empathy. She bombed. 

And so, I am learning how to do better, how to pray, first how to listen to the Holy Spirit. 

But when others say what I don't need, God's Word always says just what I need. I've been drawn in these weeks when we've been moving my mom in and preparing her for this transition. I've been drawn to a pretty strange place in Scripture actually. It is John chapter 21, verses 18 through 19. Let me read it to us.

Truly, truly, I say to you, when you were young, you used to dress yourself and walk wherever you wanted, but when you are old, you will stretch out your hands, and another will dress you and carry you where you do not want to go. This he said to show by what kind of death he was to glorify God.) And after saying this he said to him, “Follow me.”

You know the story. It was Jesus and Peter. And Jesus says to Peter, when you were a kid, you got to go where you wanted, you had freedom. And I just need you to know that when you're old, somebody's gonna take your hand and take you somewhere, you do not want to go, they're gonna dress you and they're going to lead you in a place that's uncomfortable to you. 

That's literally what's happening to my mom, as she ages. Somebody else is dressing her. And somebody's taking her where I don't know if she wants to go there or not. But we don't want her to be where she is. 

And as Jesus is speaking these words to Peter, He gives zero sugarcoating at all. Did you notice? He's just like, hey, Peter, this thing is gonna happen. This is how you're going to die. Follow Me. He gave no promise to Peter that the trial was going to be short-lived. He just told Peter the truth about what he was going to have to endure. Who else communicates that way? Only Jesus.

Then as I've been drawn to this passage, this describes my mom's own journey. I've also leapfrogged over to 1 Peter 4:12–13. Let me read it to you.

Beloved, do not be surprised at the fiery trial when it comes upon you to test you, as though something strange were happening to you. But rejoice insofar as you share Christ's sufferings, that you may also rejoice and be glad when his glory is revealed.

Again, Jesus has just given it to us, head on, “Hey, don't be surprised. There's gonna be some trials and they're gonna burn hot. Don't act like it's strange.” But you can rejoice because you're sharing in My suffering. And when you share in My suffering, you get to share in My glory. 

I've often said that I can face anything that comes at me hide head on. It's the sideswipe that gets me. It's the stuff I didn't see around the blind quarter.

And Jesus is very, very clear with us. Suffering will come and not just once, not just twice, it's going to keep coming until either we die and are with Him in glory, or He returns for us and makes all things new. 

So, Colleen was talking about terminal cancer as if she was talking about the weather. But it really is that pedestrian, it really is that common. And it really does happen that often. Our bodies will break down every single one of us until the return of Christ. 

Yet, we can rejoice and it's not false hope. And it's not some pretend world where we disassociate from our suffering. No, we rejoice, not because the sickness is going to pass, because eventually there's going to be a sickness that doesn't. There's nothing wrong with praying for healing, but we got to have hope in something beyond healed cells, and that hope comes from 1 Peter 4:19.

In the ESV, it says this. “Therefore let those who suffer according to God's will entrust their souls to a faithful Creator while doing good.”

After the Bible writer was telling us that we can rejoice in our sufferings, after Jesus told Peter the kind of suffering he was going to have. This verse tells us that we should entrust our souls to a faithful Creator while we're doing good. 

I have just been thinking about Jesus's but bluntness towards Peter. There's a dot that the Holy Spirit had to help me connect. And that's that verse, verse 19. That while I suffer, according to God's will, I've got a job to do, and that's to do good. 

I'm never going to experience physical suffering on the level that Jesus did. And neither is my mom, though her physical suffering is great. And neither is Colleen though her physical suffering is great. Jesus endured more on His body but be sure, we do serve a God who knows what it's like to have a body that is broken. 

And yet, here's where I've parked in these days. In these days where God has not answered my prayers as I'd hoped in my days—these days where He's taken me to places I don't want to go, in these days where I've watched my mom's body go from vibrant to a shell.

If I share in His suffering, and I am sharing in His suffering. But if I will share in His suffering, and if I will share in His suffering while doing good, I will also share in His glory. 

And that's where I put my hope. I don't put my hope in a miracle. I don't put my hope in a turn around. I don't put my hope in the day I don't have to visit her in a nursing home anymore. I put my hope in the fact that if I share in His suffering, I will also share in His glory. 

Portia you got to come on. I need to go have a good bawl. You gotta take the wheel.

Portia: I am going to be right there with you. 

Dannah: We are both here with you, Erin. And you know what? I love you so much more. 

Portia: Ditto. 

Dannah: I mean, to watch you walk in through this with courage. I want to ditto what Colleen or what Portia said a few moments ago about Colleen being so calm. There's a calmness in you as well as you walk through this suffering, because you are experiencing the peace of God that passes understanding. 

Erin: Yep, all day, every day. 

Dannah: And we want that for you. That too is a type of healing. Healing comes in all different shapes and sizes. Maybe that's the other reason why the word uses plural to talk about the gifts of healing. Because it might look a little different in each life and each circumstance. 

You know, we want to walk a tightrope today. We hope that we've given you some courage to face your suffering, and to walk beside those in suffering with courage and care with a solid theology of suffering. But it's a tightrope, because there's also the healing that the Lord gives us and instructions in the Word. 

In fact, I just Googled laying on of hands Bible verses, and so many more came up than I even realized where the instruction is that we are supposed to lay hands on one another, and pray for healing, and that the prayers of righteous men and women avail much. They're fruitful; they work. 

So, we can't touch you, Erin, but we're going to reach our hand toward you. And friend, you can't touch Colleen. You can't touch your friend who's in another state. But you can reach your hand forward. And in doing so, we're just doing what the Word of God says. that We lay hands on one another when we pray. I don't exactly know why it says it, but it says it. 

So, if it says it, it means that we can do it. And we can believe that the Lord is hearing us when we do it. I just want to pray. 

Healing, in the name of Jesus, Lord over the woman listening who's suffering stage four terminal cancer. Heal her body. Lord, for the woman who's just gotten a diagnosis that she has Alzheimer's and she's terrified, or Parkinson's, or dementia of some type. Would You heal her Jesus? There's glory in that too. For the daughter who's caring for the woman with Alzheimer's or cancer, breathe courage into her heart, healing into her broken emotions today, Lord. Do what only You can do when doctors have said there's nothing left. Lord, would You see these broken bodies and hearts? Reach down and touch my sisters in the mighty name of Jesus. And everybody said, Amen. 

Together: Amen.

Grounded sisters, we love you. We really, really love you, and we pray for you. We really, really pray for you. There's a whole army of Grounded prayer warriors that meet regularly to pray. So if this episode has touched your life, if you're facing a broken body and you need healing, drop that to us in a comment in the chat. If you're watching live, we'll pray for you. One more plug for Colleen’s book In the Hands of a Fiercely Tender God. Get your copy and wake up with us together next week on Grounded.

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