Why We Still Need Sexual Integrity, with Shaunti Feldhahn and Heidi Baird

Have you ever felt like the Bible’s teaching on sex is outdated or old-fashioned? Hear from guest Shaunti Feldhahn and the Grounded hosts about why a biblical view of sexual integrity is not only relevant today—it’s necessary for personal happiness and cultural stability! Find out more in this hopeful and practical episode. 

Connect with Heidi 

Instagram: @heidimbaird 
Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/heidimbaird
Website: https://heidibaird.com/

Connect with Shaunti 

Instagram: @shauntifeldhahn 
Twitter: @ShauntiFeldhahn 
Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/ShauntiFeldhahnOfficial
Website: https://shaunti.com/

Episode Notes

• Shaunti’s website: https://secretsofsexandmarriage.com/
• “Two Reasons the Enemy Wants to Attack Your Sexuality” video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E-98dViZ-mw
• Rethinking Sexuality book by Dr. Juli Slattery: https://www.reviveourhearts.com/store/product/rethinking-sexuality/
• Revive Our Hearts podcast: https://www.reviveourhearts.com/podcast/revive-our-hearts/

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Dannah Gresh: Hey there, do you know it's possible to believe a lie and not even be fully aware of it. In fact, some of Satan's most powerful deceit in our lives can be difficult to detect. 

I was a freshman in college when I realized that I believed the lie that the Bible's teaching on sex is outdated. I'm Dannah Gresh, and this is Grounded.

Erin Davis: And I'm Erin Davis. We're here to give you two things that we know you need: hope and perspective. Dannah, if I'm not mistaken, you went to a Christian college. So in your Christian college, you realized you were believing a lie. I'm intrigued. What caused you to have that epiphany?

Dannah: Well, it was during my lunch break. Over the summer I was doing a summer internship at my father's radio station, not a Christian radio station. A woman who was mentoring me during that internship asked me this question: Are you having sex with your boyfriend? 

Erin: Wow.

Dannah: : The question was pointed. Yeah. I knew what she believed because earlier in the internship, she offered to buy me condoms if I ever needed them. She wanted me to know—very adamantly wanted me to know—that my parents’ biblical views about sex were very old-fashioned and that I didn't need to live out my life according to their beliefs. 

So, in that moment when she asked me that question, I was like, “No, I'm not having sex with my boyfriend.” I said it very confidently. But the thing is, Erin, I was reasoning to myself, and I was lying to myself when I answered her. I was like, I'm not having sex with them. Not now. Not at this moment, not at any time in the recent past. But if you know my story, you know that there's sexual sin in that relationship.

But you know, here's the thing, Erin. That conversation began an unraveling in my heart to figure out what I really believed. I had to decide if I agreed with what the Bible taught about sex, or the way I was living. Though I would have never verbalized it, my actions, my sin proved that I did actually believe the Bible's teaching on sex is outdated. But God in His great mercy and His wonderful grace at that moment with that question . . . My emotions were just all over the place. Everything that was happening in my heart, but He began to pull me towards the truth of God's Word through that conversation.

Erin: I love the holy unraveling that you're describing when He starts to pull on the strings of our hearts. That's what we're hoping that God will do in our hearts today—pull on some of your / our hearts today.

Maybe you believe that lie that God's teaching on sex is outdated. Or maybe you like Dannah would deny that you believe that. But it could be that your actions and habits prove that you've been deceived. Maybe you're using pornography. I mean, that is no longer (I'm not sure it ever was) a male problem. The numbers of women using porn are just going up. 

Maybe you're living with your boyfriend, perhaps your social media posts and conversations . . . Maybe it's the things that you’re binge watching in the evening when everybody else is asleep. So today, we want to drive a stake in the ground. 

We really want to declare two things. One, God's guidelines on sexual integrity were never in style. So if they feel out of vogue, that’s not new. And number two, we still need a call to biblical sexual integrity.

Dannah: Yes, amen. We sure do. A practical reason as I've studied this topic for about 30 years now, is it makes our lives better when we embrace a biblical view of a sexual integrity. For example, when I write about sex, I really love to use God's Word as the backbone. But I also love intelligent and credible data from social science, but it’s gotta be credible and well researched.

Again and again, I find data from some of even our most liberal sources that reveal that a sexual ethic built on self-control and respect for one another result in a happier life. Can I give you just one example, Erin. I'm ready, give it okay. This is an example for the men but one study out of Indiana University revealed that a man's sexual happiness correlated to the number of sex partners he had. But it's not what you think, because men with the most sexual partners were the least satisfied. And men with the least sex partners, they demonstrated the highest level of satisfaction—those who had self-control those who experienced monogamy. Don't you just love that?

Erin: I want to raise the roof because that's exciting. Dannah and I both get very excited, when social science catches up to what God's word has been telling us for a very long time. Sometimes they act like they've made this big discovery, and it's like, “Well, you know, the Ancient of Days has been telling us for a really long time. You're not gonna read that in a headline anywhere, probably. Although there was a headline once said: “Revenge of the Church Ladies.” That was started by USA Today. 

Dannah: That's a true fact. USA Today title, “Revenge of the Church Ladies.”

Erin: I love it. And the basic thesis was that women Christian women having monogamous sex with her husband were the most sexually satisfied. So, it has been a headline on occasion. But we need to recognize that we need sexual integrity for our own personal happiness. We flourish when we follow God's ways. But it's bigger than that. We need sexual integrity for cultural stability, like can we just recognize that our culture is sexually unstable right now?

Dannah: We can recognize that, yes.

Erin: I believe that the SEC self-control serves as kind of guardrails. I heard another teacher say that once that sexuality, and our approach to it is really guardrails for the individual and the culture and 2022 and a hearing before the Joint Economic Committee of Congress, data was presented to prove that children raised by two married parents and a healthy relationship are likely to be held up happier, healthier, and better prepared for life. So, we need the guardrails and they're down and we want to bring them back up. Right, amen.

Dannah: Amen. And especially this month, when the guardrails that are down, are being celebrated.

Erin: Yeah. Dannah, back to the lie that you believed about sex: God's teaching is out of style. I know that as a freshman in college, you were a follower of Jesus. You knew how to dig in God's Word. Because the time I met you a few years later, you were a woman on a mission to call teen girls, which I was one at one time to live in sexual integrity, according to the Bible. So I'm curious, what did you find in God's Word that changed it all from that conversation with the woman who was offering to buy you condoms? Realizing you were believing a lie, you jumped into God's Word would you find?

Dannah: Well, I'm going to share a little bit more about that today when we get grounded in God's Word. There's one thing in biblical teaching about sex that hardly ever gets talked about, and it's what anchored me to living with sexual integrity. I'm so thankful that Jesus lets us push the reset button. That's what I had to do in my own life. Maybe you have to do that in your life today. He is calling out to you with this program. But before that, we'll get some practical advice. I'm like fangirling a little bit today over our guest.

Erin: I know. 

Dannah: Okay, I love our guests. I like talk about her quite a lot because she's somebody that brings credible data to many of the conversations about relationships.

Erin: Plus, biblical truth that can be hard to ignore. 

Dannah: Yeah, it makes me so happy. We're talking about New York Times best-selling author, Shaunti Feldhahn. She's a Harvard trained analyst who uses her education to provide data-driven, biblically-grounded relationship advice.

Erin: Come on. 

Dannah: And she's just released the largest nationally representative study ever conducted with married couples about sex. She's faithfully defending a biblical view of sexual integrity doesn't get any better.

Erin: Just stay tuned to hear what the data says. I'm curious. You should be curious too. So, today's episode is full of great stuff. I hope you've already hit that share button. This is an episode that women need to watch and listen to. If you haven't, just hit that, click that share button that's easy enough to do. It's gonna be full of straightforward and practical advice. And I'm so glad Shaunti is here to share some with us today. 

But before we dive into all of this stuff about the guardrails and why we need sexual integrity and what they found in that massive survey, we're going to take a hard detour for some good news, and it might feel off topic, and that's okay. 

Sometimes good news is we want to start every episode with a smile. But is it I want you to keep in mind as you meet our good news guests that we believe our sexual ethic must be driven by God's Word. And you cannot really understand God's Word until you have surrendered your life to Jesus Christ and have the Holy Spirit living within you. So that's where we're gonna go next. Portia, take it over, girl.

20:04 - Good News (Heidi Baird)

Portia Collins: All righty. You are absolutely right. It seems like we're taking a hard left turn here. But we're not, because knowing is at the foundation of everything that we're talking about today is the good news. And you know, we like to share good news about the Good News. That's the gospel. We've got a special guest today who will get you excited to share the gospel. I love it. Welcome to Grounded, Heidi.

Heidi Baird: Thank you for having me.

Portia: All right, let's get to it because I'm super excited. I want you to share with our Grounded sisters all the good stuff. I heard through the Grounded grape vine that you have a passion for evangelism. And so, I want to ask, have you always had that passion, or is it something that you’ve cultivated?

Heidi: I became a Christian when I was 17. So I did not grow up in a Christian home. I was the first believer in my home. The thing that got me so excited about the gospel is because I didn't know personally where it was going when I was going to die. I was so afraid growing up, where am I gonna go when I die? 

When finally I heard the good news through some very sweet friends who invited me to church for a year. They invited me to church, and I kept saying, “No, I'm busy. I'm busy. I'm busy.” Finally, I said, “Okay, fine, I'll go.” 

I went and heard the gospel, and all the questions that I have been asking about what happens when you die were answered. I found the answer. I was so excited. I was a little bit passionate and crazy. My parents thought I had joined a cult or something because I was so passionate about this good news that I had discovered. It truly did change my life forever. I never looked back. I have been passionate for the gospel ever since. 

Portia: Oh, I love it. Well, I also heard that one way you share the gospel is by handing out gospel tracts. So, how did you get started with it?

Heidi: I have them everywhere I go, Alright, so the funny part is I literally bind my purse that I'm going to buy my new purse. I buy it specifically with a tract pocket. Now it doesn't come with a tract pocket but I decided that this is going to be my quick drop pocket that I could whip out that tract. But I do even in our home. My husband built a beautiful table to go in our front foyer area that has a little drawer. It's my tract door. So when people come to the door and want to talk to you about religion, I'm gonna pull those tracts out. 

So, my driven desire to preach the gospel and share the gospel theory is truly compassion because I feel like that is the answer. If you're thinking, “I'm afraid to share the gospel. That scares me.” Then pray for compassion for Christ’s compassion in you to pour out. When you see people that you would be compelled to share the gospel. 

That's me, I can't help but share the gospel because of Christ's love in me pouring through me and that compassion for others. 

Portia: Amen, amen. I'm with you, 100%. So, you know, here on Grounded, we like to do our homework about our kids. We texted your daughter, who is a dear friend of mine, and another beloved, Grounded guest. We asked her for the scoop. And she said, let me let me read this. She said, “My mom is the ultimate gospel tract, passer outer, and she has so many crazy stories.” So, can you tell us one of these crazy stories? I would love to hear it. 

Heidi: Okay, I have one that always cracks me up every time. We were in a clothing store. I had to take one of my sons to buy jeans. And if you know what that's like taking a 15-year-old boy to buy jeans, it's like: let's get in, let's get out, Mom. Like, we're not doing shopping, right? 

Well, we go in, and there are these two beautiful Muslim women. I'm assuming by what they were wearing that they were of that religion. We found the jeans, and he was going to go try them on. As he's walking off, he says, “Mom, you should go share the gospel with them. “

And I thought in that moment, I was kind of like, you know, you get in those selfish modes. You're just like, “I'm here to shop.” But there was the conviction. And I thought, “Okay, I am just going to . . . I don't know what am I going to say when I get there.”

I don't know. But I walked up. And I thought as I'm walking toward them, “ Lord, just give me the words to say. I don't know what they need to hear. I know the gospel. I know the truth. But what do they need to hear?” And so I started praying. And as I'm walking up, I'm praying, I'm literally having nothing. I don't know when I'm gonna open my mouth and hope something comes out kind of thing.

And normally I'm ready. I have nothing. Well, I opened my mouth. And God really did just pour these words out of my mouth. I just said, “I just wanted to come over here and tell you that your smile caught my attention. You were so beautiful.” While I said that, they both turned and were very like taken aback by that, but receptive. I was able to end up having a beautiful conversation and shared the gospel with them. 

The next day, I go to a seminar where they teach you how to present the gospel to those of the Muslim faith. They said the number one thing you want to do is comment on how beautiful their smile is. And I just thought, “How could I know that other than the Lord?” He made that come out of my mouth? 

And so, I always tell people, you don't have to always have all the answers. You just have to know the truth. Memorize some Scriptures, maybe do the Romans Road, learn some Scripture, and then just be willing. God does the work. We don't save people. God does the work. And so, be willing, be ready, pray for compassion, be bold, and God will work through you. So, it's a beautiful story, though. 

Portia: Amen. That is a beautiful story of how God provides. I'm reminded in Scripture where it talks about, you know, “I'm gonna give you the words to say.” And so that is so great. 

Heidi: Amen.

Portia: Well, really quickly. We do want to give this caveat to all our Grounded sisters watching that handing out gospel tracts is not a substitute for your life's witness. Y'all tracking with me? Heidi, I want to ask you this. What are some other ways that you intentionally share the gospel with others?

Heidi: I feel like the most important thing is to befriend people, make people feel like you care for them. If you're literally in a grocery store, you're going to come up to the counter and this sweet woman is going to maybe bring up your groceries or scan your groceries. You can just ask simple questions like, how's your day going? How long do you have to work? Just whatever to stir up a conversation. Let people know that you care and that you're actually noticing them as a person. You may not have the opportunity to share the gospel, but you're building a relationship. So maybe the next time you come to the grocery store, go through her line.

I have had amazing opportunities with our neighbors simply by asking them, how can I pray for you? How's your day going? I've had amazing opportunities to have full-blown Bible studies with our neighbors simply by seeing them on the driveway and asking how their day is going. And then once they tell me can I pray, nobody's ever rejected that. They always welcome prayer. 

So just being a willing, loving person who's willing to love on others and just be welcoming and let people know you care for them. The gospel will be there in that conversation eventually. It may not be on that one particular time, but God will open the doors.

Portia: Amen. Well, Heidi, you have reminded us today that because of Jesus, there is good news worth sharing every day, no matter where you are, in the mall, wherever, with your neighbors. And you have certainly put a smile on my face ad all of our faces. I'm sure I can I imagine our Grounded sisters are smiling real big right now. So thank you so much, Heidi. We will drop a link to learn more about how to if you guys want to connect with Heidi. HeidiBaird.com. Thank you so much for being with us.

Heidi: Thank you for having me. It was a pleasure.

Portia: Well, your sexuality, it seems like we're taking a hard turn, y’all, but we're not. We remember the gospel. This is gospel sinner truth. We're filtering today, we are studying and learning about sexuality God's way. And here's the thing: your sexuality is never, never neutral. Guess who said that? Dr. Juli Slattery. I can't take credit for that. I love that. I've heard her say that. She taught us this particularly last time when she was on Grounded.

So, we kind of want to remind you, and we want you to watch this one minute clip. Then I want you to stay put, don't get distracted because we have a critical conversation coming up between Erin and Shaunti Feldhahn.

Dannah: Why do you think the enemy chooses this area in our lives to attack?

30:26 - Dr. Juli Slattery Video

Dr. Juli Slattery: I think for two reasons. First of all, the sex is never going to be a neutral in your marriage. In every marriage, sex is either going to be something that draws you together and bonds you and builds trust and communication and intimacy. Or is creating distrust and is creating resentment and bitterness. And so that's the first reason. But the second reason is, and this is true for single women as well. Sex is never going to be a neutral area in your relationship with God. It's either going to be something that draws you into deeper intimacy with Him. As you understand healing and intimacy, or is going to be something that creates a barrier. There are so many women for whom sex is the thing that they feel like they can't bring to God because of the shame or because of the disappointment or because it just feels unholy or dirty. And so when we address sexual issues within our marriage relationship, or even in our own hearts, we're not just doing something that's psychological or relational, we're actually engaging in spiritual battle.

31:40 - Grounded with God's People (Shaunti Feldhahn)

Erin: Amen. Well, Shaunti Feldhahn is a best-selling author, she's a social researcher, she's a speaker, she's a podcaster, not to mention the fact that she is incredibly wise and a blast to be around. So you are in for a conversation that I know is going to stick with you well beyond this episode and into your week and beyond. Welcome back to Grounded, Shaunti.

Shaunti Feldhahn: And it's always good to be with you guys. Y'all crack me up.

Erin: We have fun. Shaunti, you got a new book out. I've got it right here. It's titled Secrets of Sex and Marriage: Eight Surprises that Make All the Difference. We're going to talk about some of the content. But I got to know, what prompted you to want to write about sex in marriage?

Shaunti: Don't even get me started. Okay, you know how I do these research studies. And the whole point is like, if I'm going to try to help people in their relationships in this one area, like what are the little things that matter most. If you're going to make just one or two little changes, what's going to have the biggest impact? We've been doing this around marriage. 

My husband and I have been doing this research around marriage for years. Our last project was on money, which is another one of the big issues in marriage that gets us all in a kerfuffle, and not about like, how do you have a great budget? Because you don't want my advice on how to have a great budget, but how do you have a great relationship around money. 

And we finished that project, and we had known that God had led us there. And we kind of went, “Oh, man, I feel like the Lord is calling us to tackle the topic of sex,” because sex and money are like two of the main issues that tend to get in there and cause issues in marriage. I was terrified, I will be completely honest with you. I was terrified to tackle this topic. But it is such a huge issue in marriage. 

And, and so we went ahead, and we actually recruited one of the leading most renowned sex therapists in the Christian community. His name is Dr. Michael Seitzma, to be our co-author or co-researcher, because this is a topic that if we didn't have somebody who was truly an expert, you can do damage on this topic. 

Erin: Yeah, it’s tender, there are landmines embedded. The enemy wants to control the narrative. I actually saw a Christian friend post on social media this weekend, if Christians can't talk to each other about it, who are they going to talk to? What's our alternative? Google? Do we want to be googling what we're supposed to be thinking and feeling? 

So, I'm glad we're talking about it. I want to set the table for what kind of conversation this really is. You said in the first few pages that creating a healthy, intimate life starts with what happens in your mind, not with what happens in the bedroom? So, we're really talking about hearts and minds in this episode. Why is that where it starts?

Shaunti: Well, it's because the way that God has wired us and crafted us. It is very clear from all of the studies that have been done that I've seen, including ours, but not just ours, that there is something very powerful about sexual intimacy that touches the core of our emotions, our vulnerability. You can see a connection in neuroscience and neurobiology about how our brain is wired and how certain things are activated. In us, and all of that clearly, to me, as a believer, that's by design. That's the way God has wired us. And so just like so many other areas of life, we have to get our heart and our mind right, in order to actually have the walking of it out in whatever that area is right.

And certainly, in this area, which is so vulnerable. It is such a . . . I guess the way that I see it is that this is such a sacred topic. It is such an awkward topic amongst many people. It's one of the only areas if you think about it, that the average husband and wife, they don't talk to even their closest friends about this topic. Like, there are very few, if any, other topics out there like that. We're all kind of functioning in a little silo, in a vacuum, not knowing whether what we're dealing with is normal, not knowing how to ask questions, and often not talking even to one another. And so that's when we talk about intimacy. There's a real need for more intimacy on this topic.

Erin: Yep. And intimacy requires vulnerability. You call that study The Marriage Intimacy Project. What surprised you in the research?

Shaunti: Oh, man. Well, everything, to be candid. Nothing surprised our co-author, Dr. Seitzima. He had heard it all as a sex therapist. Everything surprised me. I'll be honest, one of our biggest priorities as we looked through the data was actually to focus on the things that the average couple, like me and my husband, focus on. Things that the average couple didn't realize is getting in the way in their relationship. It's there. 

A couple of weeks ago, I wrote a blog called “The Church that Talked About Sex.” We have this weekly equipping blog, and there was this church that Jeff and I've been speaking at that did just a fantastic job of dealing with this topic very sensitively. People are going to get their information from somewhere, right? Like, the Church should be that place, like you said a few minutes ago. 

The pastor stood up on stage. He had this quote, and I've been thinking about it ever since. He said, “The devil will do everything he can to try to get you into bed, before marriage, and everything to try to keep you out of bed after marriage.”

Erin: And that's so true.

Shaunti: What we are trying to dig out in this research in The Marriage Intimacy Project is those things that get in the way of our marriage relationship, that we don't even realize are getting in the way. So, I can give you some examples if you want, but that was the promise.

Erin: Yeah, I love that. I love how you're framing it because so often it can become a battle between the husband and wife, or it can feel like a battle between Christians and culture. But it's a spiritual battle that's happening inside of our bedrooms, and that should make us want to rise up and fight against it.

Let me tell you something that happened just yesterday, Shaunti. I picked my oldest Eli up from youth group. We drove by the church and someone had planted in front of the church very visible a sizable sign that said, said “Happy Pride Month. Love others as Christ has loved you.” And rainbows were everywhere. And my son, he's got all kinds of zeal as a follower of Jesus as a 15-year-old. He's got this heightened sense of justice. It was like, “I want to rip it down. I want to burn it down.” And I said, “Buddy, we're not going to do that. We're just gonna keep driving. But we're gonna show the world that we have something better to offer.” And I'm not sure he really got it. But I think he still would go tear that sign down today if I'd let him. 

But there's a reason we scheduled having youdoing this episode in June because the cultural conversation about sex and sexuality is very loud this month. I mean, it's always loud, but it just gets cranked up very loud. I think a lot of Christians might be tempted to just hunker down and stay out of it. 

So, should Christians engage in the conversation about sexuality? And what's at stake if we choose not to?

Shaunti: So, first of all, I love that question. And the answer is, of course, we have to engage in the conversation, and engage in all of the ways that God tells us to engage in every area. Because when you're called to be in the world, but not of the world, you are called to be a part of that conversation. It's kind of like the last segment. It's not your job to convince anybody. Your job is to be able to lovingly share what you believe that God has presented, in this case, a sexual ethic, and to let the Holy Spirit speak to them, as opposed to the push, push, push, or the attack. Or as you pointed out, the kind of the pulling back and I'm just going to sit under a rock. 

And honestly, if we engage respectfully and lovingly and just say, “Look, I don't understand all of the reasons why God said certain things in the Bible, either. But I have to decide whether or not I'm going to bow the knee.” Even if I don't always understand that, this is the calling according to what God says. 

You said something earlier, Erin, that I think was really, really important. You said we're not the first ones to deal with this. If you look at history and you look at the early church, yeah, there were several areas that the early church followers of the Way in the first century were radically different from the culture around them. The treatment of women was a big one. Because women had no rights and no ability to be a person, they had no agency. 

And so, here's the early church saying, “No, women are equal at the foot of the cross.” Whoa, that blew everybody's mind. The treatment of the poor and the care for the widows and the orphans. It's our job as followers of Jesus to actually care for the poor and do something about it. That was radical. 

And the third thing that was radical was the Christian slash sexual ethic, because it was so different from the culture and all of those things. It's a bit of what you were talking about earlier. It's because God knows what is going to lead to human thriving. God knows that those are some of the things that will show a watching world, how following Jesus makes a difference. You don't have to be shouting in order to show that. And so that's the reason why I'm passionate now, after starting this project reluctantly I guess a few years ago, because these projects are three-year projects, and they cost a lot of money. 

But that's the reason now I am passionate, because I see that the Christian husband and wife having a healthy, intimate, sexual relationship that honors God is for their thriving. But it also strengthens our marriages, and our marriages are one of the core things that speaks to a watching world about Jesus.

Erin: Yeah, it's inextricably tied to your Christian witness. So, there's a lot more at stake than are you and your husband satisfied in the bedroom. There is this idea that is countercultural.

As you were saying that, I was flashing back to when I was in college, and there was a guy there that I'd been trying to share Jesus with unsuccessfully. And one day he asked me this very abrupt question. And I said, “Well, I'm, I'm waiting to have sex till I'm married.” And you could see on his face. It was like he discovered a unicorn in the forest, but he was genuinely interested from that point on why I would make that decision and what Jesus meant to my life. So, for the single woman to follow God's call to wait till marriage is part of your witness. To the married couple, to honor each other and be faithful to each other, it's part of your Christian witness. So, there's a lot at stake here. 

We always love to point our viewers to God's Word, Shaunti. Is there something in Scripture that really grabbed your heart or took on fresh meaning as you were studying sexuality?

Shaunti: Oh, yes. I was just looking at it earlier. It's 1 Thessalonians 4, and do you mind if I just read this Scripture? 

Erin: I would love it, go for it. 

Shaunti: All of 1 Thessalonians, obviously, there's a lot in there. But if you look at this chapter, and specifically, you look at verse three. And the next few verses, it says God's will, speaking to the followers of the Way, right speaking to the believers, God's will is for you to be holy. So, and then fill in the blank. So what's the next step? Stay away from all sexual sin. 

Erin: Wow.

Shaunti: God knows that that is a huge part of who we are. “Then each of you will control his own body and live in holiness and honor, not in lustful passions, like the pagans, who don't know God in His ways.” And then it goes on and on. But it's basically saying, you've been called to something different. You know God. Your eyes have been opened. It's part of our witness, and it's part of our obedience, to be able to handle our sexuality in the way that God says honors Him. 

And that's why it's easy, I think, for the church to focus so much on not having sex before marriage that we may not always prepare people for what does that mean after marriage? What is it that in marriage is are going to be some of the things that will really help us connect in this area and have it be a source of delight and strength like that clip that you talked about that Juli Slattery said, which was profound.

Erin: So, so good. Shaunti, I would like to spend like 10 more hours having this conversation with you, but I got the books. I'm just gonna pretend that you're talking to me in the book. Ladies, I know you're gonna want to grab your copy. So, I'm going to point you to SecretsofSexandMarriage.com Run don't walk there. Because this is definitely an area where the enemy shoots a lot of fiery darts. We want to, just like Shaunti explained, live out our faith through our sexuality. Thanks so much for being on Grounded, Friend.

Shaunti: Absolutely.

Erin: We love ya. 

Dannah, We've been in God's Word. Keep us in God's Word. Tell us where we need to turn to next in our Bibles.

47:44 - Grounded in God's Word (with Dannah)

Dannah: I would love for you to grab a Bible, open it to 1 Corinthians. I'll go there in just a second. But first I want to read to you some results of a survey. It happened in 2020. It says half of Christians said sex casual (not relationship sex) defined in the survey as sex between consenting adults who are not in a committed romantic relationship is sometimes or always acceptable. 

Do we believe lies about sex? You better believe we do. Listen, that is not sexual integrity, casual sex. Consenting sex between two adults who are not in a committed romantic relationship is not sexual integrity according to the biblical teaching. 

What it is, is a divided mind. They want to be Christians and have their hearts and their minds belong to God, but their bodies belong to themselves and their desires. We've divided the physical act of sex from the sacred commitment of devoting our lives to Christ. I really think it's the heresy of our times. But we're not the first to behave that way. 

When I was believing that lie that the Bible's teaching on sex is outdated. I didn't just study what the Bible says about sex. I studied the context and the culture. I discovered that the view that we can just have sex and it doesn't have any merit or meaning to our spiritual well-being. That was a commonly held view among the Greeks and the Romans when Paul was writing most of his instructions about sexuality down for the Christian Church, the followers of the Way. In other words, the Bible's teaching on sex wasn't ever in style, even when it was being written. It was always countercultural. 

Here's where we come to another big lie that I believed and you might believe it, too. I believed that my sex was not connected to a part of my spiritual life. I see this one devouring and enslaving a generation of young Christian adults. 

It's why we can have 50% of Christian adults declare that a casual sexual encounter, mind you, not a sexual relationship. But a casual encounter is always acceptable. It's not, it never was. People who believe that want the salvation of Jesus without the Lordship of Christ. They want the sacred provision of eternal life, but they do not want the Word of God to direct their physical living. 

And that's precisely why the apostle Paul wrote 1 Corinthians. It's a letter about learning to look at every area of life through the lens of the gospel. And today, I'd like to help you look at your sexuality through the sacrifice of Jesus Christ. And what I'm about to share with you, for me, nothing has made sex make more sense than what I'm about to share. I think it could bring some clarity to you today. 

I'm going to read to you from 1 Corinthians 6, you might want to read 1 Corinthians 6 and 7 as kind of your homework this week. Paul writes a ton about sexual ethics. He answers some of the questions the church members at Corinth have about it. He's revealed that the Greek and the Roman culture have food for the stomach, the stomach for the food mentality about sex. In other words, it's just a physical need, so do what you need. 

We know from historical documentation, one of the things this included was freely using prostitutes. Shaunti mentioned earlier that the early church had a respect for women that was uncommon in culture. And one of the views of the Greek and Roman culture was that if a woman remained single, she was expected to serve culture as a prostitute. 

Instead, the church said no. If a woman is single or widowed, we're gonna care for her so she doesn't have to make her money that way. That's going to become important as I read to you. 

Let me read 1 Corinthians 6:15–17. It says, “Do you not know that your bodies are members of Christ? Shall I then take the members of Christ and make them members of a prostitute? Never! Or do you not know that he who is joined to a prostitute becomes one body with her? For, as it is written, ’The two will become one flesh.’ But he who is joined to the Lord becomes one spirit with him.”

Paul starts out, do you not know? Apparently, many of the members in Corinth thought their behavior with prostitutes meant nothing. It was just a casual transaction, meeting a need between two consenting adults. And I might add, it was the most meaningless kind of sex, just a commercial encounter. But Paul then says, “Do you not know that this meant something?” He quotes Genesis 2:24, “The two will become one flesh.”

He says that even in this transactional encounter, this so-called meaningless sex that just scratches an itch, I am telling you that the way God designed sex to function, the two will become one flesh, that still happens. It's only been in the past 10 years or so that we truly understand the physiology behind this biblical statement, one flesh. 

We know that our brains, as Shaunti mentioned, the neurobiology happening in our brains during sex. Well, we now know that dopamine makes you want it again. It's a pleasure indicator that says do that again, which is a beautiful thing in the context of marriage. We get a download of dopamine that invites us back to intimacy with our husbands once again. 

But another thing that happens is oxytocin washes across the deep limbic part of the brain. And oxytocin is a bonding agent. It makes us feel like we belong. The very first time we experienced that or encountered is when we're babies. We make it against our father's chest or our mother's chest, maybe nursing. That download of oxytocin to our brain says you belong. And we get a prolific download of that when we have sexual encounters within marriage . . . or with a prostitute.

These neuro chemicals of pleasure, the bonding of them, they cannot be overwritten. Years ago, Dr. Joseph Makelhaney of the Medical Institute for Sexual Health said the desire to connect is not just emotional, is not just a feeling. Bonding is real and almost like the adhesive effect of glue, a powerful connection that cannot be undone without great emotional pain. 

I want to put it this way. Your body makes a promise whether you do or not. There are bonds with the people you have sex with, no matter how committed or casual that sexual encounter may be. Within marriage this is a beautiful gift that superglues you to one another. Outside of marriage it's baggage that we bring into every other relationship, including perhaps our marriage. 

I found that to be true my own life. When Bob and I fought I would think of that one sinful sexual relationship that I had as a teen. And that made me feel guilt on top of guilt. I wasn't free until I began to understand the sacredness of my body and the spiritual implications of my sexual decisions. Then I began to pray for God to forgive me and to release me from those bonds. And oh, what a redeemer we have because he did that. Now, what gave me the freedom to do this? 1 Corinthians 6:13. Let me read it again. It says, “ The body is not meant for sexual immorality, but for the Lord and the Lord for the body.”

So, I just began to pray. “Lord, sexually, I didn't fully understand the implications. But I do not want to remain a slave to these memories and bonded to my sin. Your Word says that my body is not meant for sexual immorality, but for the Lord. I am Yours. Cleanse me; cleanse all of me. Let me be all yours.” And slowly, the Lord began to heal me. But I had to begin to think about and pray about sex and my sexuality as if it has spiritual implications, because it does.

Any time the conversation about sex revolves around only the physical, we're not having a conversation based on the truth of God's Word. Your body was not made for just physical sex and food, but ultimately to serve and worship Jesus who can in fact, fill the body with Himself. Should we surrender? I should say He fills us with His Spirit, and that makes your body a sacred temple to be filled with the presence of God. There's no room for sin. 

I decided by the power of Christ's blood that there will be no room in my mind to be tortured by my past sin. Listen, when we play around with sexual sin, we're not toying with sin. We're not toying with insignificant spiritual laws. We're toying with very significant spiritual laws set forth from the time of creation. 

And that is why Paul quotes from Genesis. He understands the spiritual implications of sexual sin and the gift of marriage. From the beginning, God created our bodies to be sacred. You know, during pride month, I'm thinking about praying through Genesis 1:26 and 27. Over and over again. It says, “So God created man in His own image and the image of God, He created him male and female, He created them.” 

Listen, our bodies have the ability to carry the image of Christ, the image of God, the Father, the image of the Holy Spirit. Its maleness and femaleness that God chooses to say are significantly a part of that image, from Genesis to Revelation. The Scriptures say that marriage is a picture of God and of God's love for us. Here again, they can see Him. They can see the image of God when we live out a sexual ethic according to the plan of God. So, we start as image bearers, and then we get to live it out. 

Ephesians, 5:31 and 32 talks about being one and a husband and a wife coming together. Paul says, “I'm not really talking about sex and marriage and physical oneness between the husband and wife. I'm really talking about Christ and the church.” Listen, if that is what sex represents, if our bodies carry the image of God, and when we come together in the act of marriage, we can represent the union between Christ and the church, how motivated is Satan to see that picture destroyed in your life? He is motivated. 

My friend, I invite you to sit down with the Word of God. And if you have to push, reset, push, reset, but do not believe the lie that your body and what you do with it is separated from your spiritual relationship with Jesus Christ, because our Word teaches something very differently. It teaches that your body is sacred, sacred, and it's meant to glorify God. May you do that? Well, my friend, even if you have to push reset, as I did.

Portia: Amen 

Erin: Dannah, I knew she telling me the word. This is an area of passion and study and life message. And that was a beautiful and profound teaching. Thank you. Portia, could throw your shoe?

Portia: I am ready to throw my shoe. 

Erin: You know it’s solid when Portia throws her shoes. 

Portia: Yes, so solid. I just want to tell you Grounded family, Grounded sisters. Listen, this is such a blessing to be able to receive such rich practical teaching. Don't take it for granted. Don't take it for granted. We're gonna keep laying it on thick. 

So, listen, if you are going to showcase God's good plan for sexuality in our perverse world, you're going to need to get equipped. Dannah just helped us do that, like, excellent. But also, we're here to help you with that. We always want to point you to resources—good, biblically grounded resources. And this month we are featuring Dr. Juli Slattery’s book Rethinking Sexuality. 

So, all this month here at Revive Our Hearts, we're featuring this. You heard from Dr. Juli Slattery earlier in this episode in that short clip that I introduced, but I want you to listen to this description from the book. 

“Instead of arguing with the world about what's right and wrong about sexual choices, this practical resource equips you to share the love and grace of Jesus as you encounter the pain of sexual brokenness, your own or someone else's.” 

Like hello, we need this book. We all need this book. I need this book. 

Erin: You know, something else I've heard Dr. Juli Slattery say is that we're all sexually broken. And it's because we're all sexually broken that we really need God's truth. So, somebody might be listening and be like, “I'm an old married woman. What do I need?” But we do need to be equipped because we all tend towards sexual brokenness.

Portia: Yes, absolutely. Absolutely. Even good things that God created like sex needs, we need to be steered back on the right path. We want you to check out this book, but I don't want you to put it in your Amazon cart. So, if you’re just searching on Amazon, I need you to click off of there right now, because we will send you this book where you give a gift of any amount, any amount to the Ministry of Revive Our Hearts this month. 

So, you're really kind of getting a two for one here. You get to help Revive Our Hearts and you also get this resource that helps you understand and express God's good design. And then plus you get to partner with us to help women thrive in Christ.

Erin: Okay, Amazon's not offering that deal. You don't get to help them thrive in Christ. We also want to encourage you to listen to the Revive Our Hearts podcast all month long. I hope you're already a listener, hope you're already subscribed. But this month, we're releasing the audio from True Woman ’22. 

And if you weren't there, I got to tell you about something that happened. There was a special preconference, our girl Dannah hosted it. It was called “Gender and Sexuality: Clarity in an Age of Confusion.” I was sitting in the back of the room on the floor. There were hundreds of women in there for probably hundreds of different reasons. But it was the most pointed and biblical example of truth on sexuality that I've ever heard all in one place. 

So, you're gonna hear those teachings on the air on the podcast. You're gonna hear from Rosaria Butterfield. If you don't know her story, she was a lesbian, gay rights activist. And then God grabbed her heart and helped her understand a biblical sexual ethic after the gospel.

You're going to hear from Mary Kassian, who's another just woman who's studied this and is grounded in God's Word. You're going to hear from Dr. Juli Slattery, who we keep mentioning in this episode, and some others. 

So, I promise, I do want to make you this promise: you're not going to feel defeated, because I know that looking at the culture right now can make us all feel very defeated. You're not going to be defeated by the bad news. As you listen to these episodes, you're going to be empowered to share the good news of God's best in this area. 

So you can find it all at ReviveOurHearts.com, or you can download the Revive Our Hearts app. And I promise you, I keep promising you things. But my promises are as good as in the bank. These are powerful episodes. They're going to equip you, empower you, and get you in God's Word. It’s really good stuff. What an episode. 

Dannah: Listen I, gotta tell you that we went almost an hour today. But there's not a sentence I would have wanted to miss. 

Erin: I agree.

Portia: Likewise.

Dannah: I'm reading the comments. As you guys were sharing about all these wonderful resources we have available this month and Revive Our Hearts, it's so cool to me how God's Word spans the ages and spans the life experiences. We have Toni writing about being in her 30s and being single, but how this program is speaking to her heart and her life. And then we have Judy, who is older and widowed who says this is such an encouragement to me as a woman who wants to be remarried one day, what a reminder for her to push, reset on everything she thinks about sex and to protect it as sacred. 

So, we've loved having you guys today. Listen, I do want to really encourage you. Don't believe the lie any longer that I'm the only sexual sinner or previous sexual sinner in the audience.

Let me just say, push reset today. God is a God of forgiveness and second chances. And it is exhilarating and thrilling to experience His redemption in your life. You can do this. Start today. Call a friend, pray with that friend. If you're that widow that's like, “Ah, this is hard.” Call that friend and ask for staying power. If you're that single woman, reach out, be in a small group, get your intimacy needs met and community so that it doesn't pour out into sexual desire. This is such an important thing in your life. Your sexuality is not separate from your spirituality. It's a part of it.

Erin: So important. I hope you’re here every Monday. Next Monday, I want to offer you a special invitation to be here. Next week's episode is one that this team has been praying for God to make happen for I think maybe more than months, maybe years. 

And here's why. We're going to talk about how some New Age practices seem to be creeping into the church and, much like believing lies about sexuality, is sneaky. You don't necessarily know that's what your heart and mind believe. It leads to bondage. There are some New Age things that we are seeing in women's lives inside the walls of the church that are causing our alarm bells to go off, and they have been causing those alarm bells go off for a long time. We've got a really gospel-centered and experienced guest. Marsha Montenegro is going to be our guest, and I don't want you to miss it, so set an alarm be here next week

Portia: Yes, don't miss it. Let’s wake up with hope together next week on Grounded. 

Dannah: Grounded audio is powered by Skype. Grounded is a production of Revive Our Hearts, calling women to freedom, fullness, and fruitfulness in Christ

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