Healthy Questions or Dangerous Doubts?

Dannah Gresh: According to Alisa Childers, doubts about God and His Word can lead you toward the truth.

Alisa Childers: If you have honest questions about the reliability of the Bible, there are answers. If it’s an honest doubt, then that person is going to be hungry.

Dannah: This is the Revive Our Hearts podcast with Nancy DeMoss Wolgemuth, author of Lies Women Believe and the Truth That Sets Them Free, for November 3, 2022. I’m Dannah Gresh.

Here’s our host, Nancy DeMoss Wolgemuth.

Nancy DeMoss Wolgemuth: Is it okay to ask hard questions about the Bible? Well, I just shared that there have been some seasons in my life. I remember a particular one in my teenage years when I just found myself wondering: How can I know all of this that I’ve been raised with is true?

Maybe you’ve wondered how you can know it’s true. Maybe your child, parent, or a friend is questioning whether the Bible is reliable. What do you do when a loved one tells you they’re not sure what they believe about God anymore?

Yesterday, Alisa Childers dove into what is sometimes called “deconstruction of the faith” in a conversation with Dannah Gresh. We’re going to continue that discussion with Alisa today as she talks about the authority of Scripture. She’ll also give us some tips for recognizing when those around us may be doubting the truth or wrestling with what they believe.

If you missed yesterday’s episode, you can hear all of it on the Revive Our Hearts app or on our website,ReviveOurHearts.com.

Now, let’s listen to the second part of Dannah and Alisa’s conversation.

Dannah: Alisa, you have a beautiful brain.

Alisa: Oh, goodness. (laughter)

Dannah: It’s beautiful. I could just listen to you all day talk about the things of Jesus because you talk about it with such eloquence.

Yesterday, if you missed the testimony that she gave us about how she entered into a community by invitation that had an intention to deconstruct her faith. She weathered through some doubts and called upon the name of the Lord. Then began to really read and study both progressive Christian literature and solid biblical theology. She put them side by side and came out with a faith that is solid and sure.

And today, she is one of the most well-respected, female apologists that you’ll read about, hear about, on the internet. I’m so happy, if you’re meeting her for the first time, to introduce you to her.

Alisa, yesterday you mentioned that one of the first things that a progressive Christian will go after is the authority of Scripture. Why does the authority of Scripture matter?

Alisa: This is a great question. The authority of Scripture matters because we’re Jesus followers, and that’s where Jesus taught and lived. So if we’re going to call ourselves Jesus followers, if we’re going to call ourselves Christians, our view of the Scriptures should be what He taught. 

 

If we look at the Gospels, Jesus referenced the Old Testament Scriptures, which were the Jewish Scriptures, which, by the way, are the same books of the Old Testament that we have today. They were arranged in a slightly different order in the Jewish Scriptures, but they’re the same books. So, they’re the same Old Testament we have.

Over and over again Jesus referred to the Old Testament Scriptures as the Word of God. He continually used them to correct the religious leaders. In fact, He told the religious leaders, “You are in error because you do not know the Scriptures are the power of God.”

He said that it would be easier for heaven and earth to pass away than one bit of the Law to be made void.

He continually talked about the Old Testament Scriptures as if these were the very words of God.

And, interestingly, too, in some cases, He would be referring to Scriptures that by His time were already 1400 years old. There was no sense in which Jesus said, “Well, okay, we need to reinterpret this passage in light of our current cultural moment.” No. He expected the religious leaders to understand what God said and what God meant.

And so, the authority of Scripture is a hallmark of the Christian faith. This goes back to the beginning. This goes back to Jesus and the apostles, the early Church fathers. If you read the early Church fathers, you will see that they may not have had the doctrine of inerrancy hammered out as a phrase. But if you would have gone to one of the early Church fathers and said, “Yeah, I don’t know. I think the Bible can get some things wrong.” I think they would have looked at you cross-eyed. Nobody thought the Bible had errors. They knew that it was the authority for the Christian life. It’s always been that way for Christians.

Dannah: Where in the Bible does it tell us that it’s the authority for our lives?

Alisa: Well, I think the best place to go for that is, again, to Jesus. If we look at Jesus being tempted in the wilderness (and, boy, this is one of my favorite things to talk about) we go to this scene in Matthew 4 where the devil is tempting Jesus. This is the famous scene that Jesus has fasted for forty days and forty nights. Jesus was fully God, fully human, so He was hungry and tired. His physical body was hungry.

The devil comes to Him and he says, “If You’re the Son of God, command these stones to become loaves of bread” (v. 3).

But consider how Jesus fights temptation: He is God. He could have called down a legion of angels. He could have fought that temptation any way He wanted to. But He appealed to the authority of the Scriptures by saying, “It is written . . .”

By the way, when Jesus says, “It is written,” there’s a Bible scholar named John Wenham who has a little book called, Christ in the Bible. In that book he notes, “When Jesus said, ‘It is written,’ it is the same thing as Him saying, ‘God said.’”

So, when Jesus fights temptation, He appeals to the authority of the Scriptures. That’s where the living Word appeals to the written Word as authoritative to fight against temptation. All three times that the devil tried to tempt Him, Jesus comes back with, “It is written . . . It is written . . . It is written . . .”

I think that’s probably the strongest example because the Bible is authoritative because it’s inspired by God. And we know from, I believe it’s 1 Timothy—I’d have to look it up—where it says, “All Scripture is . . .

Dannah: 2 Timothy 3:16

Alisa: There it is. Yes. “All Scripture is inspired by God and profitable . . .” It goes on to all these things. But that word, “inspired by God,” in English comes from one Greek word, and it literally means, “God breathed.” Scholars will tell you this implies the highest authority for the divine voice. This is how we should approach our Scriptures.

Dannah: So what do you say to people who are starting to say, “Yeah, I’ve heard Christian leaders I respect a lot say, ‘They’re just letters that were written’”?

Alisa: This is primarily the progressive Christian view. They view the Bible as primarily a human book that’s written about God. So, in other words, the people who wrote the Scriptures, they were just doing the best they could in the times and places that they lived.

This was when spirituality and religion and Christianity were all in its infancy. So what they wrote isn’t really authoritative for us, but they were just trying to figure God out in their times and places. So we can analyze what they wrote, and we can know what they believed. But this is not a historic or in any sense an orthodox understanding of Scripture.

This is a new twist that the progressives are bringing to the Scriptures so that they can still say, “Hey, I’ve got a high view of Scripture. I value the Scriptures.” But they don’t mean that they value them as the Word of God or in any kind of authoritative sense.

If somebody comes around and says, “Well, I don’t know. I think these were just letters written by humans. I think it’s really valuable. We can understand what people believed about God.”

My question to them would be: “Well, what do you make of what Jesus said about the Scriptures?”

That’s where I would go because, like I mentioned before. I think it’s a fair proposition to say, “If we are Jesus followers, if we’re going to call ourselves Christians, our view of the Scriptures should be what Jesus’ was.”

And, like we mentioned, Jesus never talked about the Scriptures as if they were just letters or the religious musings of some ancient scribes. He continually referred to them as the Word of God.

Dannah: That’s really important that you used Jesus as your defense when you’re talking to someone like this, because so many times they’re not willing to throw out the words of Jesus. I’ve even heard people say, “Well, I like the letters in red. I can deal with those. I just don’t need the rest of the Bible.” Well, Jesus did. He needed the rest of the Bible.

Alisa: That’s correct because it’s all His Word. The whole Bible is red letters.

Dannah: Yes. Exactly.

Okay, so, the other thing I hear you say is these people who are spouting these views, they have evolved intellectually to a point where we can understand God better than the writers of Scripture.

And the one thing I think of when you say that is: Really? Like the writers of Scripture, many of them walked with Jesus. They talked with Jesus. How can you, thousands of years later, when you’ve never had a face-to-face encounter with Jesus . . . The Bible tells us that we see Him through a veil.

Alisa: Yes.

Dannah: How is it that you can understand God better than one who’s walked with Him and looked into His eyes? That’s a really hard thing for me to grasp and understand. And, the Holy Spirit was guiding and directing and leading every word that they wrote. I’m sure you hear this sometimes that you’re being judgmental.

Alisa: Yes.

Dannah: Jesus said, “Judge not lest you be judged.” So, maybe we shouldn’t be so judgmental of these people who are saying these things that they think about the Scriptures. What would you say to that?

Alisa: Well, this is what we call the atheist's favorite Bible verse. They quote Jesus, “Judge not let you be judged.” But as we know, with Scripture, you can’t just pluck one verse out of context and then apply it broadly. You have to take the whole counsel of Scripture, and you have to take the immediate context of that Scripture.

And what Jesus was talking about was actually giving instructions about how to confront a brother or sister in Christ with sin that is in their life. This is the famous verse where He says, “First remove the log from your own eye before you can see clearly to take the speck out of your brother’s eyes.” (see Matt. 7:1–5)

So the point of that whole section of Scripture is how to help your brother or sister in Christ take the speck out of their own eye. So what Jesus is saying here is not that we should never judge. Paul says, I believe it’s in 1 Corinthians, that we’re not really supposed to judge outsiders. It’s those inside the Church we are to judge. That has to do with the context of confronting each other’s sin and not allowing sin to fester and grow within the Church.

So what Jesus is talking about is not that you should never make judgments about whether or not somebody has sin in their life. He’s saying don’t do it hypocritically. Take a hard look at yourself first. Make sure that there’s not a big log in your own eye that’s keeping your vision clouded so you can’t even help your brother with maybe the smaller, less significant sin that’s in their lives.

Interestingly, Jesus also said, “Judge with right judgment.” He said that in another section of Scripture.

Either Jesus is contradicting Himself, which I don’t believe is possible because Jesus cannot err. He cannot sin. He cannot err. God cannot err. So we have to put these things together and realize Jesus is not saying to never judge. He’s saying to judge not with hypocrisy and to judge with righteous judgment. And you’re only going to know what that is if you’re soaked in the Word of God, if you know His mind, which is revealed to us in Scripture.

Dannah: So, it’s okay for us to judge. In fact, especially when someone is teaching and interpreting the Scriptures, it’s critical to judge. I mentioned this yesterday, but in Acts 17, we’re told that the Bereans were of more noble character than those in Thessalonica for they received the message with great eagerness and examined the Scriptures every day to see if what Paul said was true. (see v. 11)

I can’t imagine hearing Paul speak and going, “Let me see if I think what you’re saying is true.”

So it’s not a bad thing. I mean, when we leave church on Sunday, we should be thinking, “Let me examine that and see if what my pastor said was true.” That’s not a bad thing. That’s a good thing.

Alisa: Yes. I even tell people who listen to my podcast or read my books, I say, “I am not the authority. Don’t take what I say as gospel truth. I could be wrong. I’m sure that I’m wrong on some things. I’m sure I’m wrong on several things.”

It’s every Christian’s responsibility to take what you’re reading and what you’re listening to and not just trust because this person is reliable. I think there are people who are genuinely reliable and you can let your guard down a little bit. But you should never let your guard all the way down.

We have to measure everything—everything you’re hearing in this broadcast—against Scripture, everything your pastor says. That is what keeps Christians from getting sucked into cults or cultic behavior. Biblical authority is actually a great protection for us in that sense.

Dannah: It really is.

My heart is bleeding for the woman listening right now whose child is deconstructing or maybe whose grandchild is deconstructing or they’re wondering if they are. So, let’s counsel her heart. What are some signs that we should watch for in our friends, in our family members? What are the things that, when you hear these words, you should know: Ah, this is the symptom that conversation unfolding in their lives somehow is progressive Christianity. What shall we look for?

Alisa: Well, this is the number one question I get from parents of adult children when I go speak at conferences, many times with tears in their eyes. “I don’t know what to do. My child is deconstructing. I did everything I knew to do as a Christian parent, and yet they’re walking away from their faith.”

My heart goes out to you if that’s you. We are living in unprecedented times, I think, with the rise of the internet and the social media platform, we’re seeing more of it than ever.

Let’s first deal with how to spot it. Maybe your child isn’t being really open with you. Maybe that’s something they haven’t really admitted, but you have suspicions.

I would look for language that, first and foremost, would sort of lower the authority of the Bible. That would be questioning the Bible in a way where it’s not necessarily an honest questioning. I think honest questioning is fine.

If you have honest questions about the reliability of the Bible, there are answers. The problem is a lot of times people don’t like the answers, so they keep kind of asking the same question in a different way, trying to discredit the Bible. Because, really in that case, the doubt they’re experiencing isn’t honest doubt based on truth, but it’s really more of a dishonest doubt that is seeking justification for the unbelief that’s already there. That’s a huge difference.

So I think I would, as a parent, maybe try to diagnose which one it is. If it’s an honest doubt, then the person’s going to be hungry for answers. Your child is going to be, like, “Tell me the answer. I want to know.” Then you have a great opportunity to go on. You don’t have to be a scholar. You don’t have to be an expert. You just have to be curious enough to go on a journey to learn some things. There are some really great resources and books.

But if you suspect it’s the other, if it’s something where maybe they don’t like the moral restraints that the Bible puts on people. Maybe they have some rebellion against the things of God. That’s going to be a little trickier.

And I would say in that case, if you suspect that, you have a really fragile and small window of opportunity to just stay in their lives. And the reason I say that is, currently right now, I’m researching for a book on the topic of deconstruction. As part of that research, we have been interviewing people in the deconstruction movement, privately, on Zoom calls, and just asking questions and trying to get to the bottom of some things. And, of course, we’re listening to a lot of deconstruction stories.

I think that would be the number one piece of advice I would give to Christian parents, it’s going to be a long haul. It might be years. But your primary goal in the beginning is to stay in their life. Because there’s an instinct in people, when they’re deconstructing, they’re actually deconstructing because they believe that Christianity itself is toxic and is oppressive, and is something that is harmful for society.

They’ve already become convinced of that in one way or another. And so, the instinct to detach from anybody who is a Christian, anybody who’s going to be propping up the thing that they think is harmful and abusive, that’s going to be their number one instinct.

So I would say, before you try to fix anybody’s theology, before you try to convince them to come back to historic Christianity, your goal is to stay in their life. If you can do that, you can do that by not reacting in fear. You can show lots of love. Live the joy of the gospel out in front of them. They know what you believe. Just don’t be rattled by some of the things that they’re saying.

If you can accomplish that, then there may be an opportunity down the road a bit to have a deeper conversation. But if you try to go in with that in the beginning, it could go south.

Dannah: So that was a question that I had. Should that parent or grandparent dive right into defending the faith? And you’re suggesting that maybe the most important thing right now, I’m assuming is prayer, first of all. 

Alisa: Oh, yes.

Dannah: We haven’t talked about that, but we fight this battle on our knees.

Alisa: That’s right.

Dannah: It sounds to me like you need to invest in the heart of this adult child or this teenager, and make sure that they are loved and accepted. Are you saying that it’s going to run its course, and there’s not going to be a time when we do defend the faith or we do answer their questions? Help me understand that.

Alisa: No. I think there very well will be. But I think the instinct, especially for Christian parents, is to react in fear and then just overwhelm their adult child with facts and apologetics and all of this. I think what I’m saying is, this is going to require a lot of wisdom. This is going to be a long haul. Deconstruction is not something that happens overnight, and so it’s probably not going to be fixed overnight. It’s not going to be fixed in a coffee date.

I think that living the gospel out, breaking the stereotypes of whatever they think Christians are, in front of them, is a powerful apologetic. They already know the answers you’re going to give them. They grew up in your church. They know these answers.

So I think that what is a powerful apologetic in this case is, like you said, show love. That doesn’t mean compromising what you believe or affirming something that is unbiblical. You do not have to do that, but show love.

Showing that you’re not rattled by questions, I think, is a huge apologetic. Wait with wisdom and on your knees in prayer for that opportunity for the Lord to give you something to say or maybe something for them to think about or a question to ask them that might get the wheels turning a little bit in a different direction.

It’s going to require razor-sharp wisdom. It’s kind of like triage, you know, when there’s a big accident and people start being brought into the hospital. The guy with the broken arm is probably going to have to wait while they treat the guy bleeding out. But the guy with the chipped tooth is going to have to wait on the guy with the broken arm.

Triage the situation. How desperate is this situation? Are they open? What’s my relationship with them like? Do I have an open door here?

I would sort of ask all those questions and triage how far down the road this has gone. If it’s the kind of thing where they’re just hating Christians, they’re feeling Christianity . . . This might be an opportunity to just not speak everything you think in that moment and just try to show them love.

Keep that relationship open so that when there’s that opportunity, you’ll know it. The Spirit will give you the words and the wisdom to walk through that in each individual situation.

Dannah: I have found that that is true. Someone who is in my life is doing some deconstructing, which, if you weren’t listening yesterday when we defined deconstruction, you need to go back and listen to that conversation because it was riveting. Alisa shared her testimony of entering into her doubts of her faith. But deconstruction, basically, is the process of systematically dissecting and often rejecting the beliefs that you grew up with in the Christian faith.

I have found that maintaining a relationship with the young women in my life who are in that place, that fuzzy place of questioning the Scriptures, questioning what they grew up under, many times they have been injured by the church. They have wounds that are very real. Sometimes they have questions about how the church is doing church that are really illuminating places where we’re not doing it biblically, and they’re bothered by that in authenticity.

One of the things I’ve noticed is that many moms are very allergic to the questions and doubts that these girls are bringing to me. They’re bringing them to me because they know it just flips their mom out. They can’t talk about it anymore. And so, keep your heart steady. Keep your heart open.

What would you say to the whole idea of: How has the church been, or not been, a safe place to bring our doubts?

Alisa: Yes. This is something I think that is a theme that comes up over and over again. We hear in deconstruction stories that people came to their pastor with questions, and the pastor said something like, “Well, we don’t ask those questions here,” or “You need to just trust your Bible,” or “You need to just have faith.” Sort of implying that if you ask questions, or if you poke around, that’s a weak faith.

I think that’s incorrect. But I will say this as well, this is also something to be aware of: often you’ll hear people say things like, “Well, I came to my pastor, and I asked questions.” But, basically, they didn’t like the answers.

That’s part of the problem, too, because deconstruction sort of creates this culture of agnosticism and doubt. It’s like doubt is viewed as a virtue. If you express certainty on a particular belief or something, you’re kind of viewed as less enlightened.

And so I think in some cases where we hear stories like that, I think there are some totally legitimate cases and legitimate cases of spiritual abuse—being wounded by the church, or witnessing hypocrisy, moral failing, all of that. Fully acknowledge that that goes on.

But I do think there’s also a good bit of . . . We hear people say, “Well, I think that the doctrine of substitutionary atonement is an abusive doctrine.”

Dannah: Tell us what the doctrine of substitutionary atonement is.

Alisa: Well, the idea that God the Father would require the blood sacrifice of His only Son to cleanse us from our sins, in the mind of a lot of progressives, this implicates the moral character of God, turning Him into somebody who’s promoting child sacrifice or something like that.

So, there’s a bit of knots to untie where people will feel abused because they’re being told doctrines that they just simply don’t like or that they can’t make sense of. They’ll use the word abuse in those scenarios, which I think actually diminishes the real experiences of abuse that other people have.

But that does happen a bit where there’s some conflation of that, or perhaps they just didn’t like that the pastor had answers, or they didn’t like those answers so they wanted to go look for different answers.

It takes, like I said, a bit of diagnosis and a little bit of triage to figure out. That’s where good questions can be so valuable. Say, “Tell me more about your story. Talk to me about where you’re at and why you’re having these questions.” And like you said—and I think you made such a good point—girls are coming to you because it flips their mom out. Moms, don’t flip out.

When I was going through my dark time of doubt, there was someone in my life who would flip out, and there was someone in my life who would just be kind of chill about it, like, “Well, okay, why does that rattle you so much? Let’s talk about it.”

Dannah: How did your mom respond to that time? Did you talk to her?

Alisa: Well, my mom is really discerning. I remember one time she came to the church with me. As we were walking out, she said, “You need to leave this place. The Holy Spirit is not here. This is not okay.”

Dannah: This was the church where you were taking those classes that we talked about yesterday that was trying to deconstruct your faith?

Alisa: Yes. I remember thinking, “Oh, Mom. I’m just on a journey; you’re just so fearful.” She was right to say that, though. She was correct. I just couldn’t see it at the time.

Dannah: And you know what? Your daughter, your son might not see it right now, but keep praying, as Alisa Childers has just encouraged you. Keep your heart open to them. Don’t be afraid of their doubts. Don’t flip out. There will come a time that the Lord will probably give you the opportunity to speak with boldness.

I wonder, could you come back one more day? I hate to inconvenience you, but I’d really love for you to counsel us through: How do we talk to someone who’s deconstructing their faith in a way that we defend the faith without being offensive or hurtful to them?

Can you help us with that?

Alisa: Yes. Absolutely.

Dannah: Okay. Let’s do that tomorrow.

Nancy: Alisa Childers and Dannah Gresh have been talking about responding to someone who is questioning their faith. This is something every one of us needs to be thinking about.

I can think of times just in the last couple of weeks when Robert and I have gotten texts from friends or family members saying, “My son (my daughter, my friend) is questioning things about the faith that we thought they always believed or that they knew were true. What do we do?”

There’s nothing more desperate than the cry of a parent saying, “My child is rejecting what they were raised with and questioning the trustworthiness of God and His Word.”

That’s why conversations like this are so important. Alisa talks more about all of this—deconstruction, doubts, faith and so on—in her book called Another Gospel. You’ll find a link to that book in the transcript of today’s episode on our website.

Whether you’re a new believer or you’ve been a believer in Christ for a long time, we all need reminders of what’s true. That’s why I’m excited to tell you about the Revive Our Hearts 2023 Ministry Calendar.

It’s designed to keep bringing you back all through the year to two words, a truth that has kept my heart anchored in so many different circumstances over the past few years. If you’ve listened to me at all over those years, you know what those two words are: Heaven rules.

In fact, just say it with me right now, would you? Heaven rules. Say it again. Heaven rules. It’s true, and that’s why I want you to be reminded of that truth all throughout the coming year.

This calendar is filled with encouraging quotes taken from my new book, Heaven Rules. It’s got Scriptures that you can cling to all year long that will steady your heart in times of doubt or fear.

And this year I had the joy for the first time of submitting my own photos to be used in this calendar. They’re nature photos, pictures of God’s creations, places that Robert and I have been to and experienced together that display the glory of God. That’s what’s going to help us keep our hearts grounded in the truth that Heaven rules.

When you support this ministry with a donation of any amount, we’ll send you this calendar as our way of saying “thank you.” You can visit us at ReviveOurHearts.com, or call us at 1-800-569-5959. When you contact us, be sure to request your Heaven Rules Calendar.

Now, Alisa Childers will be joining us again tomorrow to give you some ideas for talking with others who are going through a season of doubt in their faith. I hope you’ll be back for Revive Our Hearts.

Revive Our Hearts with Nancy DeMoss Wolgemuth is calling you to freedom, fullness, and fruitfulness in Christ.

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