Matter of Worship

Nancy DeMoss Wolgemuth: Amy Baker says perfectionism isn’t as selfless as it seems.

Dr. Amy Baker: I thought what I was aiming for was just excellence in work, but what I discovered was that probably what I was aiming for was ease and comfort in my own life. 

Nancy: This is Revive Our Hearts for March 1, 2021. I’m Nancy DeMoss Wolgemuth. 

Do you remember that song in Mary Poppins where she sings, “I’m practically perfect from head to toe. If I had a fault, it would never dare to show. I’m so practically perfect in every way.”

Well, you may not think of yourself as practically perfect. I mean, who of us does? But is it possible that you have perfectionistic tendencies? Ohhh! Today, we’re going to listen to a conversation about the problem of perfectionism and what we can do about it.

It’s part of our month-long emphasis in March on practical topics that many of us deal with on a regular basis. Dr. Amy Baker is familiar with this concept of perfectionism. In fact, she’s written a book about it. We’ll tell you more about that in a bit.

Today Amy is joining Revive Our Hearts staff Dannah Gresh, Erin Davis, and Patricia Saladin in a roundtable discussion. Here’s Dannah to start off the conversation on getting to the root of our perfection problems.

Dannah Gresh: I want you to think back to the last time you accomplished a task, something that’s important to you. It doesn’t really matter what it is. It could be something as fun as decorating your house, or something as important as preparing your childrens’ homeschool curriculum. Perhaps it’s writing a report for a team at work or planning something for your church. 

Just go there with me that last time you did something that was task-oriented, alright? Are you there? How did you feel when you started that task? Before you started that task? Moments into it? Maybe even hours into it? Do you have a pulse on those emotions?

Okay, let me ask you something: if you remember feeling angry, anxious, or maybe getting to a place in the process where you were paralyzed . . . Recently, the Lord has been showing me that sometimes those things show up in my life when I’m working on a task.

Dr. Amy Baker, the author of Picture Perfect, has been used in my life to show me that. She’s a biblical counselor. She says that when those emotions rise up consistently when you execute tasks, they could be a sign that you’re struggling with—okay, brace yourself, now—perfectionism! Oh, no! Are you a perfectionist? Are you struggling with it?

You’re in the right place today. If you’re not sure if you are, you’re also in the right place, because we’re going to find out! Welcome, Dr. Amy Baker. Hi there, Amy.

Dr. Amy: Hello, Dannah. It’s good to be here!

Dannah: I’m so glad you’re with us today! Amy, tell me, why are those emotions—anger, anxiety, and that feeling of paralysis—sometimes a symptom that you’re struggling with perfectionism?

Dr. Amy: I think the reason for that is because God, in His kindness, usually allows our emotions to be a reflection of our inner man. By inner man I mean, the desires, the motives, the beliefs that give direction to our lives.

The Bible indicates that what comes out of us is as a result of what’s happening in our heart, and that’s not what I naturally conclude when I find myself struggling with anger or anxiety or feeling paralyzed. I think the reason I’m angry is because my friend didn’t do what I expected. I think the reason I’m anxious is because I don’t have enough time to get everything done. I think the reason I feel paralyzed is because someone else’s expectations are just too high. 

So I come to the conclusion that if I could change my circumstances, then life would be okay. But the reason that those things have that impact on me is because of what’s going on in my heart. And therefore, those emotions may be showing me that my heart is drawn toward perfectionism.

Dannah: I always say that emotions are messengers. They are telling us something; they’re communicating something important. I like to say that what comes out of me is what was in me.

Dr. Amy: I agree.

Dannah: I didn’t think I was a perfectionist until I read the back cover of your book, Amy. The Lord has me in a season, I think, of learning. I sometimes have to talk myself out of being anxious when I’m accomplishing tasks. Until I read your book, I didn’t really realize that that might be something the Lord was inviting me to address.

I just thought it was that I had a lot to do, and I would frequently find myself saying, “Okay, breathe. You can handle this day.” But I want to address that today. I want to find out, where is perfectionism lurking in my heart and what does God want me to do with that?

And you know what? I think I’ve discovered one thing, and that is: there are as many ways that perfectionism shows up as there are personalities on this planet! 

It’s not just me and Amy in the studio today. I have a few friends along with me, because we’re going to see how it might show up in their lives.

First, let me introduce Erin Davis. She is no stranger to you, I’m sure. But just in case, she’s one of my co-hosts on our live videocast, Grounded, and the teacher of one of our newer podcasts, TheDeep Well. Most importantly, she’s my friend . . . and a boy mom! Erin and her husband, Jason, have four beautiful boys and live in Missouri.

Erin: Davis I’m so glad to be with you talking about this very important and very personal topic!

Dannah: I want to ask you something, my friend: are you a perfectionist?

Erin: Absolutely! I don’t even have to hesitate! And it doesn’t look for me like it looks in other women’s lives. I think you’re right, it can look like lots of different things. I’m a firstborn, so sometimes we firstborns can be very, very motivated to achieve. I’m fond of saying, “I’m not Type A; I’m type double-AA!” [Dannah chuckles] So I have that very task-oriented nature.

I have that very natural drive, which I actually think are God-given things. I wouldn’t want to put those in a box and change that about me. But isn’t it true that for all of our God-given gifts there is a dark underbelly . . . where the Enemy would seek to take what God has put in us for good and use it for harm.

And so, for me, maybe one of the dark sides of being very driven and very task-oriented is that propensity toward perfectionism. For me that looks like chronic despair, because I can’t reach it! So, it doesn’t look like me looking perfect.

You would laugh if you came on the Davis farm. You would think, Perfectionist?! No way! I mean, my house is a mess; my hair is a mess—at all times. But I can face really daily discouragement about that inability to be perfect. So, to me, that’s the evidence of perfectionism in my heart.

Dannah: Yes, I feel like our strengths always have the potential to also be our weaknesses.

Erin: Always.

Dannah: So, if you’re type double-AA, hang on! Today you might learn a little something that helps you back away from that and be more at peace with it. Our other guest today is Patricia Saladin. You are going to love her sweet Spanish accent! It gives me no small amount of joy every time I hear it! Say something sweet in your accent, Patricia.

Patricia Saladin: Well, hello, Dannah. That Spanish accent was something that showed me my perfectionism. I didn’t want to come and talk to you all because of my Spanish accent! 

Dannah: Oh, but you know that we love it. I could listen to you all day.

Patricia: Actually, it’s not my Spanish accent. It’s my lack of fluency in English while I’m thinking spiritual things. My tongue gets in trouble when I want to say things in English.

Dannah: Patricia is the “voice of Nancy DeMoss Wolgemuth” on Aviva Nuestros Corazones, the Spanish ministry of Revive Our Hearts. She’s married to Eduardo Saladin, a pastor in the Dominican Republic where they reside.

I’m thinking you might be a perfectionist, Patricia, because you’re the one who wrote to Nancy and asked us to do a program on this topic. How has it manifested in your life?

Patricia: I didn’t think of myself as a perfectionist, but after reading the book, I saw my heart, and I was overwhelmed with what I saw. I really gave it a lot of thought, and I could trace it back even to my childhood. In school, I got a medal, a prize at the end of the year. I never was absent, never late, always punctual, on time. 

I thought it was my strength, like you were saying. But with this book, I have seen the dark side, like Erin was saying. Definitely, every strength has a weakness. I know now that I am a perfectionist and that I struggle with a lot of things that are the result of that.

Erin: Dannah, a theme that I’ve heard already is, “I did not think I was a perfectionist!”—except for me. I was like, “Yeah, I’ve got that problem!” I think a lot of women will tune in and that might be their initial response: “I don’t think this applies to me, but I’m going to listen to it for my sister.” But you know, I think it applies to us.

Dannah: I love that, “I’m going to listen to it for my sister.” Okay, Amy, let me ask you . . . you wrote the book on perfectionism. Why? Is it possible that you realized you were struggling with some of that in your own life? 

Dr. Amy: When I wrote the book, I really didn’t consider myself to be a perfectionist. I think, like you all, as I worked on it, I came to the conclusion that, “Look, these things that I’m identifying as perfectionism, I think are in my heart as well.”

I originally got interested in this because I had just heard the teaching, “Well, God doesn’t expect you to be perfect.” I heard advice to lower your expectations. And that didn’t help me. So I was like, “Okay, I just need to do some study on what God says about this.”

I knew that Matthew 5:48 says, “Be perfect, therefore, as your heavenly Father is perfect” (NIV). So hearing, “God doesn’t expect you to be perfect,” I just couldn’t make it work! So that’s how I originally got into it. 

As I began looking at all those characteristics of perfectionism and just seeing in my own heart how I would set up standards for other people and be frustrated when they weren’t reached . . . I thought what I was aiming for was just excellence in work. But what I discovered was that probably what I was aiming for was ease and comfort in my own life. “If everybody would just do things the way that I thought they should be done, then my life would be easier!” 

And it really wasn’t perfection, because if it was really perfection, then I should have loved to show grace and mercy when other people didn’t do things the way I wanted! (laughter) That wasn’t what I was seeing come out of me.

Dannah: Yes, and it’s an eye-opener when we see this stuff coming out of us not being so cute and pretty. You said something I want to pause on for just a second: That tension . . . God says in the Bible, “Be holy as I am holy; be perfect as I am perfect.” And yet the sense of recoiling when somebody tells you: “You don’t have to be perfect; it’s okay to fail. It’s okay to make mistakes.”

If you recoil when you hear that, “But no, no, no! I need to pursue excellence!” That might be a symptom that there’s something that needs to be adjusted in your heart and life. Is that what I’m hearing you say, Amy?”

Dr. Amy: Yes, I think so. For me, it just became very important to understand this biblically. I came to the conclusion that when Jesus says, “Be perfect as I am perfect,” that was really a blessing. I think we’re going to get into that more. I wouldn’t have necessarily told you that at first.

It took some study to understand how Jesus saying, “Be perfect therefore, as your Heavenly Father is perfect,” was really a blessing.

Dannah: Here we are, a little circle of girlfriends with perfectionism problems. Why does it matter that we address it? Is that really a problem?

Dr. Amy: Well, I’ll jump in here. I believe it really is a problem, because as we engage in perfectionism’s habits, it leads to frustration. It leads to broken, dysfunctional relationships. It leads to anxiety, shame. That’s because I can’t ever live up to all these things that I’ve established for myself. 

Here’s what I think is the saddest thing about it. Ultimately, it diverts you from worshipping the perfect God, and you begin to worship perfection instead. You may just have been drawn into it little by little and never know that that’s what you’re doing. 

In fact, you may even think that what you’re doing makes God look good, and really, your worship has gotten diverted to something that doesn’t make Him look good at all.

Dannah: I keep hearing the words “approval addiction” running through my head. I think sometimes I am seeking the approval of man and not of God. That probably is one of the symptoms of perfectionism in my life. What other sins do you think might be lurking behind perfectionism? 

Erin: All those reasons Amy mentioned are so important. It can cause us to have unrealistic expectations of others. It can cause us to be constantly disappointed with others and ourselves. But, for me, here’s why I want to go to war with perfectionism: it’s because it’s anti-gospel!

The gospel is that I am a sinner, desperately broken and unable to save myself and I cannot be holy as God is holy. And so, this has been a lesson for me, being a mom of four kids—of four boys at that—there’s a sign I love. I haven’t ever bought it and hung it up, but it’s like: “Sorry for the state of our house. Our expectations have lowered with every child.” (laughter)

And that’s so true! I think, year one with baby number one, I may have thought the way to display the gospel, or the way to make God look good (as if that’s my job), is to appear that we have a perfect family and that my marriage is perfect, my parenting is perfect, and then that will draw people to Christ.

But what the Lord has used four children to teach me (and that may be how deep my perfectionism and pride go) is that actually we display the gospel more beautifully when we are honest about the fact that things are not perfect behind the Davis front door. To be honest that we do have challenges we cannot overcome on our own, that we do have relationship strains that we need the Lord’s help with. To be honest that Jason, my husband, and I are far from perfect parents, that we rely every day on the grace of the Lord. And so, really, it’s our lack of perfectionism that best displays the gospel.

And so, I think a lot of us are trying to be salt and light with the illusion of perfectionism, and it’s anti-gospel. So the stakes are really very high!

Dannah: You’re getting on my soapbox, Erin Davis! And you probably know that, because I like to say that the church is not a country club; it’s a hospital. Very often we come to church, and the last accessory we slap onto our face is our mask of perfection. Instead of coming to church needy and saying, “This is how I need Christ, right now, today! It’s not my testimony from ten years ago, but the story I’m living in today. This is why I’m here and need to be rescued by my Savior for this . . .” We don’t do that!

Erin: We sing that song “I Need You Every Hour,” and I say all the time, “I need Him every nanosecond . . . and let me tell you why!” Because, putting on the mask keeps me from the grace of other people speaking into my life and praying for me. It keeps me from the gospel! Not that I could be kept from the gospel, but it keeps me from remembering that, “Oh! It’s actually because I’m so imperfect that such a high price was required from Jesus!” So, let’s get rid of those masks of perfectionism today. They don’t do us any good.

Dannah: Yes. Patricia, why do you think it matters that we address this? What kind of sins might be lurking under it?

Patricia: In my case, it’s not only impatience and anger, but what really grieved my heart and I really cried when I saw it was my lack of love toward God and toward others. I’ve been praying for years, “God, help me love my neighbor. Help me love better.” The Bible is all about that, it’s all about loving God and loving people!

When I saw that being a perfectionist is going after my performance, after doing things right, and it doesn’t matter who falls on the way. I always said that one of my strengths is responsibility. But I said, “Okay, in order to be responsible, in order to get my tasks done, I can kill and be killed on the way.” I don’t care, many times.

It is sad to say, I don’t care who I wound in the way, so far as I get to my goal. And to see that really grieved me, because I want to love God, and I want to love people. Actually, it was a gift, it was a blessing, because, like Amy said, God was showing me my heart so I could cry out and say, “God forgive me and help me! Help me through Christ and His perfection.”

In my imperfection, to be able to love and care more about relationships with God and people. That is what I want to do and do it so right.

Dannah: Okay, stop stepping on my toes, girlfriend! This is really an area where perfectionism shows up in my life. I am very task-oriented, and I can be task-oriented to the default of hurting people.

One of the little things I’ve begun to practice, so that I honor the Lord in how I communicate with people is, when I write an email. I tend to get right to the heart of it. They ask me this; I see this problem, and I’m like, “Bam! Fix it!” 

About ten years ago God showed me how I often unintentionally hurt people, even though in my heart I was like, “I’m going to make them look better because they’re going to do this task better.” I realized that He wants me to do that with kindness.

So every email I write, my rule is when I write, “In His love, Dannah.” That’s how I always sign my emails. I go back to the top after it says, “Dear Patricia,” and I write what I call “my fluffy paragraph.” It’s just a way of me saying, “Did I care about this person’s heart when I tried to accomplish this task?”

Why? Because I am very likely to hurt a heart in the process of making something better. I’ve done it over and over again. The Lord is helping me grow. How do we get free? Let’s spend some time sharing our freedom stories.

Patricia, I’d love to start with you, because you have very recently begun to experience some freedom in this area, because of Amy’s book. Tell us about that.

Patricia: Yes, because the book points to Christ all the time! The only One who is perfect is Christ. Our only perfection is in Christ, in His perfect record. And all those things—my sins and my accusations—were nailed to the cross. And now Christ’s perfection is on my account. That’s the gospel, like everyone’s saying.

I tell that to myself all the time. Yes, I want to grow in godliness, that is very important. I want to please God, and I want to love God. But that needs to happen in the context of the relationships that really matter to God. God has given me freedom, even though I struggle. But now, I am aware.

Dannah: Tell me the story of how you became aware; tell me about how you had that book on your shelf. Go back to what you were telling us before we started recording the program.

Patricia: I had that book on my shelf since probably 2016 when I was in a counseling conference in Lafayette. But my daughter, Rosalia, this year gave my other daughter, Sara, a copy of the book. She said, “Mom, I’m reading this book.”

One morning she sent me through WhatsApp a copy of what she was reading. She said, “Mom, this is the book. I have to read it, pray, close it, and open it up again, because it’s been showing me many things in my heart.”

I said, “Okay, let me get the book. My daughters have it, it’s a good idea. Just even for fun, let’s read the book.” I grabbed the book. We have a lot of nice beaches here, and snorkeling is a very popular thing. So I said at the beginning, “Okay, I’m snorkeling and seeing all these colorful fish and the corals and everything.”

I felt like God took me by the hand and He said, “Okay, you’re having fun now, but let’s go down. I need to show you what’s really in your heart.” And it was a great discovery, but I also had to close the book. I also cried; I cried over several chapters. And I am thankful.

I wanted so much for women to listen to these, because even though in the book there are also male testimonies, I think we women with our desire to have control and to have things the way we want, we have this desire for perfection from the time we are little girls, with these stories of princesses.

We want the perfect marriage, the perfect husband, the perfect children, the perfect house. So I said, “This needs to come to women!” But the problem is, it is only in English. We’re hoping and praying now that it comes out in Spanish. 

That’s how it really got into my heart. I wanted to share it so women will be blessed and will have their eyes open to what’s really going on when you want order in your house, when you want your kids’ bedroom to be clean and neat. You go in there, and you become a monster with anger and impatience. What is that? That’s the perfectionist in you that is bringing out all that is in the heart.

Dannah: Yes. It’s not ever been the bedroom that’s a monster; it’s Dannah that’s a monster. Erin, you seem to be the only one that came into this program with a full awareness long ago that you struggled with perfectionism. What’s your freedom story look like?

Erin: Oh, I know I’m a rascal to my core! You can’t surprise me with that realization! But as you were talking, I was reminded of a story from my home with my son, Noble. Noble is a fourth-grader and brilliant! Like, truly off-the-charts brilliant. And like many families, he came to be homeschooled in the middle of the pandemic. I’d never had close access to his learning like I have this year. 

I watched over and over as we’d be around the table learning, doing school, as Noble pretended he didn’t know the answer to things I knew he knew the answer to. It was because he was hiding his brilliance. He didn’t want others to feel embarrassed; he didn’t want the attention of being so smart.

And I thought, Erin, you do that very thing! You pretend that you don’t have some gifts, because you’re worried that that’s going to make somebody feel a certain way. And so, I think in some ways I overcompensate. I don’t think that’s the answer. Sometimes we can swing it the other way and be like, “I’m such a mess! I don’t have anything going on for me!”

We can just downplay ourselves or talk down about ourselves, which is a terrible antidote for perfectionism! It’s just another way to live it out, I think. So the only answer is Jesus! My freedom in this area and every other area of my life is to be a woman of the Word. 

God’s Word is the only mirror by which we can accurately see ourselves, because the Word shows us Jesus, whose image we are made to bear. It’s not through one time in the Word, not one passage in the Word, not one book of the Bible. But it’s through daily opening my Bible and seeing the perfectionism of Jesus and acknowledging my need for Him in my life. Freedom has come in increments. I’m sure I have a long, long way to go!

Dannah: Me, too! Well, Amy, you’re the only one with the letters PhD behind your name, so coach us up, all of us—me, Erin, Patricia, our friends listening. What’s one Scripture verse we can start with? Erin is saying, “Go to the Word.” Where do we begin?

Dr. Amy: I think one of the places that we see Jesus’s heart and what He desires for us, especially when it comes to this area of perfectionism, is in the book of Matthew. Let me turn there.

Dannah: I love the sound of those pages turning there, my friend! 

Dr. Amy: We come to Matthew 11, at the end of the chapter. Jesus is speaking. He says to us in verses 28–30, “Come to me, all you who are weary and burdened . . .” I don’t know about you ladies, but I think perfectionism comes with a burden. It creates weariness because I can’t ever do enough. 

I feel guilty even if I take time to rest. It’s like, “I should really be doing something else.” So it leaves me weary and burdened. Jesus sweetly, rather than condemning me or saying, “Look, this ought to be about your relationship with Me,” He just very graciously and kindly says, “Hey, come to Me all you who are weary and burdened.”

And He doesn’t say next, “And I’m going to scold you, and I’m going to put you on the right track. Now, you’ll be able to do all those things that you think that you need to do for Me.” He says, “I will give you rest.” That’s not what I ought to expect from Him!

What I ought to expect from Him is His disapproval, His correction, His rebuke. And what I get from Him is, “I will give you rest.” He doesn’t just leave me with nothing to do, sitting in a corner, as He probably ought to do. He ought to just tell me, “Amy, just go sit in the corner and try not to mess anything else up! You’ve done enough already. Just keep your hands off of everything and don’t do anything!”

Instead, He says, now in verse 29, “Take my yoke upon you and learn from me” (NIV). He’s still going to give me something to do. There is a yoke here. I haven’t been kicked to the corner and told, “Don’t touch anything!” So He’s going to give me things to do. 

He says, “Learn from me,” not from my list of, “I need to check off this, I need to check off this, I need to check off this.” Then He says these sweet words: “. . . for I am gentle and humble in heart” (v. 30). And, just being treated so gently when I know that’s not what I deserve, it draws me to Him. 

It makes me want to throw myself at His feet and say, “Oh, You are the most wonderful Savior! I want to worship You. I want to do it your way. I’ve been sucked up into doing it my way, and I know that I’ll be tempted to do that again.” I know that I’ll go back to that, but I can come back to Matthew 28, and He’s still going to be gentle and humble in heart.

I started out by talking about our hearts and what drives us, our inner person. Jesus says what drives Him is being gentle and humble. I can come back to Him when I mess it up again and say, “Oh, I got started on my checklist again, thinking that that was what was going to be godly and that was what was going to lead to perfection.”

He says, “I’m gentle and humble in heart,” and then He says in verse 29, “And you will find rest for your souls.” That anxiety, that frustration, those are the kinds of things that are so often with me, and I think probably all of us, when we’re striving for perfectionism. He says you will find rest for your souls. No longer the anxiety of, “I’m not doing enough.”

Or, “Those potatoes were too brown! They just weren’t right at dinner, and now everybody’s thinking that . . . I don’t . . .” Whatever! I can on that for a long time. But you’ll find rest.

Then He concludes that portion saying, “For my yoke is easy and my burden is light” (v. 30). And that is so opposite of perfectionism, isn’t it? It’s not easy and light. 

Nancy: That’s Dr. Amy Baker, reminding us that we don’t have to live under the weight and the burden of trying to perform at a level that we can’t. We need the gospel. We need Jesus. We need His grace. He reminds us that His yoke is easy and His burden is light. He says He will give us rest for our souls.

If you want that rest, let me encourage you maybe to just turn back to that passage that Amy was referring to. It’s found in the gospel of Matthew, chapter 11, the last three verses. Just lift your heart up to the Lord and say, “Lord, I’ve been trying to do something I can’t do on my own. I need You! I want to get in the yoke with You. I want to find rest for my soul in Your gospel and Your grace.”

Amy has been talking with my co-host Dannah Gresh along with Erin Davis and Patricia Saladin. I’ll just tell you, this is a topic that I really resonate with and one I need to hear. So, how about you? Do you recognize some of the symptoms of perfectionism in your life? Does it feel like a burden to you? 

I want to encourage you to get a copy of Amy’s book, and it’s one I’m looking forward to reading myself, because this comes so highly recommended from our team. You can order a copy Picture Perfect: When Life Doesn’t Line Up from the Revive Our Hearts Resource Center. To do that, visit us at ReviveOurHearts.com, or give us a call at 1–800–569–5959.

Have you ever thought that the way you live affects God’s love for you? You probably wouldn’t say it out loud, but do you have nagging thoughts like that in your heart? Amy, Dannah, Erin, and Patricia will continue their conversation tomorrow as they discuss spiritual perfectionism. I hope you’ll be back to hear part 2 tomorrow on Revive Our Hearts.

Revive Our Hearts wants to help you live free from the burden of perfectionism. It’s an outreach of Life Action Ministries.

*Offers available only during the broadcast of the podcast season.