Raising Boys Today

Dannah Gresh: In the last few years, the term “toxic masculinity” has entered the popular vocabulary. Well, Erin Davis wants to help her sons avoid the sinful behaviors described by that phrase. But she also doesn’t assume all masculinity is necessarily toxic.

Erin Davis: I don’t want to teach my sons toxic masculinity. I don’t want to teach my sons toxic anything. But I do want to teach them that there is a God, and that we see very early in the pages of the Scriptures that He created men, and He created women, and both are good. And that He created men and women distinctly different, and that’s good. I do want to teach them that masculinity is not bad.

Dannah: This is the Revive Our Hearts podcast with Nancy DeMoss Wolgemuth author of Lies Women Believe, for November 8, 2023. I’m Dannah Gresh.

Nancy DeMoss Wolgemuth: So how do parents raise boys when we’re living in such a confused world? We’re going to address that question with a couple who have firsthand experience—lots of it.

Jason Davis is the marketing manager for Revive Our Hearts, and his wife Erin is the content manager for Revive Our Hearts. If you’ve listened to Grounded or The Deep Well podcasts, you’ve heard Erin is a host and Bible teacher as well.

But today Erin and Jason are primarily here as the parents of four sons and the co-authors of a new book called, Lies Boys Believe and the Epic Quest for Truth.

Now, did you catch what I just said? This is a long-awaited new arrival, Lies Boys Believe. People have been asking for this, begging for it, wanting it. I know many of our listeners are going to be very excited to know that this book is finally here. At the end of the program, I’ll tell you more about the Lies Boys Believe book and the parents’ guide that goes with it. But if you just can’t wait, you can get more information on the book at ReviveOurHearts.com. 

My co-host, Dannah Gresh, sat down with Jason and Erin to talk about raising boys in challenging times.

Dannah: Today we’re going to give you something you don’t normally get from Revive Our Hearts, and that is a great big download of testosterone. (laughter) And who better to help us with that than the mother of four boys, and you probably know her and love her as well as I do, Erin Davis.

Erin: So glad to be here. I don’t get to talk about my boys on Revive Our Hearts all that often.

Dannah: No, because it’s a women’s ministry.

Erin: It is a women’s ministry, yes.

Dannah: But those women have sons. They have grandsons.

Erin: Absolutely.

Dannah: So, we need every now and then to discuss this. And we probably wouldn’t have a complete conversation if we didn’t have a man at the table. So, Jason Davis, welcome to the mic.

Jason Davis: Thank you for having me. It’s a pleasure.

Erin: I like to introduce him as my better two-thirds—not my better half; my better two-thirds.

Jason: And I always say that’s a joke about my weight.

Erin: (laughter) It’s not!

Dannah: Okay, so let’s start here. I just want to ask, did you ever imagine, Erin, of having only boys?

Erin: Never. I didn’t actually ever know if I was going to be a mom. I grew up in the era where that wasn’t romanticized as the ultimate dream, and I was very, very ambitious. So I think while other little girls were playing house, I probably was carrying a tiny briefcase around. And the Lord, over time, graciously showed me that being a mom is a ministry. But even then, I don’t think I imagined the family that we ended up with.

We didn’t find out what we were having with boy number 1, boy number 2, and boy number 3. So in the delivery room, Jason was supposed to tell me boy or girl. 

Jason: It’s true.

Every time he was too choked up to tell me. So there was, like, this moment of . . . What? What? What? And then eventually he would say, (in a crying voice) “It’s a boy!” And then, “It’s a boy!” And then, “It’s another boy!” And so when we got pregnant with baby number 4, I thought, I better find out, because if this isn’t a girl, it’d be good for me to have a head start on that information. And it was another boy.

Dannah: Another boy.

Erin: It’s not the family I knew to dream of, but it is a family that’s a dream come true. They’re just amazing.

Dannah: Tell us the names of the boys, Jason.

Jason: Elisha is the oldest, and then Noble, Judah, and Ezra.

Dannah: So the ages range from . . .?

Erin: Trick question.

Jason: Yes. I knew you were trying to sneak something in there and investigated early.

Dannah: Well, you have one learning to drive. So what is he, fifteen?

Jason: Yes. He’s fifteen.

Dannah: And the little guy’s four?

Jason: Right.

Dannah: See, I know the ages of your sons.

Erin: Thank you for doing your homework.

Jason: On my phone I have it in my notes app because anytime I take them to the doctor or fill out any paperwork or anything like that, I have to know their birth dates and everything. I’m not one of those guys that keep that stuff straight.

Erin: Well, we have four babies. 

Jason: I was there when the babies occurred.

Dannah: That’s good. You know, you just ministered to so many men listening because they, too, have lists in their phones that they carry for the same reason.

Erin: I can only do it if I do it in order, so I’m not much better off.

Jason: I know it’s February, February, July, and June.

Erin: You got it—two winter babies, two summer babies.

Dannah: That’s awesome!

Well, the reason I’m asking their ages, of course, is because you’re in the throes of raising boys on the backdrop of this culture. What are some of the lies that you’re having to navigate through that they may be at risk of believing?

Erin: Well, I think no matter who you are, what age you are, what gender you are, we are living in a deceived culture. So all of us are susceptible to lies. All of us need to be on guard against lies. All of us need to know the answers, the truth, which is in Scripture. But I think there are some ways our boys are facing unique lies.

One seems so basic that I frequently, as a parent, believe “I can’t believe we’re having to combat this.” That is that boys and girls are different and that that’s God’s good design. And that’s something I feel like we’re having to talk to our boys a lot about. What do you think, Jay?

Jason: Well, that’s something that’s discussed commonly throughout our society, and most likely around the world, but it is important that families build a foundation, a biblical foundation, for their children, understanding that men and women were designed with complementarity—differently, but with value, both with value to the Lord.

Erin: Well, and you said it just then, but I don’t want to rush past it, that men and women are designed. We want our boys to know that they are made by God and that God exists and that God loves them. And that there is a source of truth, and that source of truth is Scripture.

So I think for those of us . . . Jason and I have been Christians for decades. We’ve been blessed to be in a Bible-teaching church for a long time. We get to serve in ministry. But kids don’t come into the world with that kind of knowledge.

Eli once told me that Ironman was god. That’s when I realized, “Oh, I’m the missionary sent to this unreached people group of my children.” So some of those just basic things are so important as our children are even wrestling with, “Is there truth? And how do I know what’s true? And how do I know what’s not true?”

 

Dannah: Well, “Is there truth?” is a question I would say when I was growing up, that I would not have struggled with. Even when I was raising my children—my youngest is going to be thirty this year and my two girls are both in their thirties . . .

Erin: How can that be?

Dannah: I know!

Erin: I knew them when they were little.

Dannah: I know! When I was raising them, we were hanging out.

And truth was not under a microscope. The sky was blue. The grass was green. 2+2=4. (Look there, I just did math, and I didn’t get hurt!)

Erin: That’s right!

Jason: Well done. (laughter)

Dannah: But, those things are now questioned because truth doesn’t have a standard or an original to go by. And most subjects, including gender—gender is probably the basic example of it.

Erin: Yes. And as Christian parents, we don’t need to test the wind. We don’t need to fight the culture. God hasn’t called us to be culture warriors, but we do need to be parenting with our eyes wide open. And to parent with our eyes wide open in this era does mean to realize our kids are swimming in waters where it seems like truth is relative.

And so, just helping our boys understand there are things that are true. There’s such a thing as absolute truth. Truth has a name—His name is Jesus. Truth has a source—it’s God’s Word. That’s all part of what I hope we are doing with our boys, and what we know other Christian parents need to be equipped to do, just like us.

 

Jason: Right. So theoretically, if truth doesn’t exist, then lies don’t exist. But I guess we all know that lies exist. We’re told things that mislead us, that aren’t accurate. And if that’s the case, then truth must exist also. So, it’s the light and darkness, color and absence of color.

Dannah: I want to dive into some of the truth that we need to be teaching our sons and our grandsons. But before I do, I want to say a buzz word and have you just respond to it.

Erin: Okay.

Dannah: Toxic masculinity.

Jason: Yes. Are you looking at me?

Erin: We’re looking at the man around the table.

Jason: I probably believe that toxic masculinity exists.

Dannah: Sure.

Jason: Toxic femininity. I think what a lot of time we label as toxic is the human state apart from Christ. And so, men who are abusive, men who are manipulative, men who force their power in negative ways, yes, that’s toxic. It’s not appropriate, and we want to fight against that.

Dannah: And I agree with that. What I get fired up about, because I am the mother of a son. He’s in his thirties now.

Erin: And he just got a son of his own.

Dannah: He just got a son of his own. That sweet little boy is going to grow up in a world where, if he exhibits strength, and it’s good strength, and it’s godly strength, it’s leadership that God’s Word would bless, that he could be misconstrued as having toxic masculinity.

Erin: Let’s talk about crayons for a minute.

Dannah: Okay.

Erin: You ready?

Dannah: Okay. Tell me about crayons.

Erin: So there was a really interesting study that’s been really formative in my own approach to our boys. This guy went all around the world, so it wasn’t just in certain kinds of schools. It wasn’t just in our country. And the whole experiment was to give a bunch of boys in a classroom a box of crayons, and give a bunch of girls in a classroom a bunch of crayons and see what happens. 

It was interesting what happened because boys almost consistently around the world would pick three, plus or minus two, colors, and they were usually black, gray, brown. And those boys in lots of different contexts would almost always draw something at a point of impact. So, two cars crashing into each other. An army guy shooting a gun. A crash of some sort.

And the girls in that study would usually pick eight, plus or minus two, crayons, and they were usually representative of the rainbow—purples and pinks and yellows and greens. They would almost always draw a scene with a mommy and a daddy and trees and butterflies.

And the teachers would almost say to the little boys in this experiment, “Look what Dannah drew. Dannah drew a happy family and trees and butterflies, and you drew a car crash. You should draw more like what Dannah drew.”

And the people who did this study drew the conclusion that little boys got a message very early on, “Something is wrong with me. I need to be more like the little girls in my class.” And they responded by either becoming kind of wild, because they knew they couldn’t, or becoming withdrawn. And then that followed them through their educational experience.

I remember sitting in the car. Eli was in preschool. Noble was still a baby, I think. I watched the elementary school in our town dismiss for recess, and all of the boys ran out on the playground as fast as they could. They tackled each other to the ground, and then the teacher blew the whistle, and they all went back in. And I thought, That’s how they were made. But they get the message very early on, “What is wrong with you? Why are you drawing violence? Why are you thinking about these things?”

I’ve seen that in my own sons. Now, does all of this have some varying degrees? Of course. But I didn’t want my sons to get the message from me or from anywhere else, just by nature being a boy, “Something is wrong with you. You should be more like a girl.”

I hear parents say, “There are no weapons allowed in my home.” Well, fine. Then don’t give your kid a pop tart, because he’s going to turn that into a weapon. Don’t let him ever pick up a stick. It’s just in him to have that . . . I always say, “All a boy is, is one continuous war game.”

I mean, our boys are practicing for something with each other! Now, does that need to be honed? Of course. Do they need to be discipled? Of course. Do I want my sons to grow up to be the kind of men Jason was describing that use their power to domineer over the weak? No, I don’t! But I also don’t want them to get the message that the things that make them boys, the things that God put in them, are bad and that they should be more like the girls around them.

So, I think it should go without saying, and unfortunately maybe it doesn’t in our culture. I don’t want to teach my sons toxic masculinity. I don’t want to teach my sons toxic anything.

But I do want to teach them that there is a God and that we see very early in the pages of Scripture that He created men, and He created women, and both are good. And that He created men and women distinctly different, and that’s good. And that masculinity is not bad. But we can’t just stamp everything having to do with boys and men and masculinity with this big ol’ red “bad” stamp. There’s a lot of it that’s really good and God designed.

Dannah: Yes.

Jason: You talked about that study, and one thing to note is they may have drawn weapons, but it wasn’t the focus of it. They were drawing action, things happening.

Erin: Yes. Some of it was rockets going into space.

Dannah: Adventure, activity.

Erin: Right.

Jason: Yes. And so, masculinity does not have to be violent. But it does need to be controlled strength. And when it’s not controlled appropriately, that’s when it becomes toxic. Not just masculinity, but when it becomes out of control or uncontrolled and hurts others.

So you look at the verse that says, “What does God require of you but to walk humbly, to love mercy, and to do justice.”

How does a man walk humbly without strength in the form of self-control? How does he love mercy? In our natural state, men and women react to wrong that’s done to us by rejecting that immediately and fighting against it. But mercy is to give mercy, to respond to insult with peace.

And then, to do justice. I mean, we could do a series of podcasts on justice. Right? And at times throughout history, it’s become kind of a catch phrase, a word that has different meanings. But to do justice is to do right by people, especially people who have been wronged. And how do you do that without some form of strength?

So I think that it’s obviously bad and toxic for men to use their strength in a way that hurts others, demeans others, demoralizes and devalues others, specifically women. A weak boy, a weak man is really the type of man that becomes toxic because they don’t have the strength to walk humbly. They don’t have the strength to love mercy. And they don’t have the strength to do justice.

Erin: Jason, what’s that cycle you teach our sons about weak men and strong men? I can’t ever get it right.

Jason: I didn’t make this up. I heard it somewhere. 

A strong man brings about good times;
And good times bring about weak men.
Weak men bring about hard times;
And hard times bring about strong men.

If you look back through history, it a cycle that repeats itself over and over and over again.

Erin: Our boys can repeat that cycle because that’s been something you’ve said to them a lot, trying to get them to understand the impact of both strong men and weak men on the world God made.

Jason: My desire for them to be strong men, which isn’t necessarily body builders or anything like that, but strong in character, doing right.

Dannah: Right. Because even among your four boys, there are very different kinds of masculinity represented.

Erin: That’s the truth! Eli was this one kind of kid. And then we had Noble, that’s our second. He’s this other kind of kid. And I thought Judah would be this something in the middle, and Judah is this totally different kind of kid. And then there’s Ezra.

Eli is kind of the classic first-born, really into sports, classically handsome. The girls like to smile at him when we go out in public. Noble is smart and studious.

Jason: But also very handsome and gets smiled at a lot.

Erin: (Laughter) The girls also smile at Noble.

Dannah: He’s a gentler boy, quiet.

Erin: He’s a much gentler boy.

Jason: Softer spoken. He likes to create.

Erin: Softer spoken, into art. He does play sports, but he’s not the sports fanatic Eli is.

Judah is . . . he calls it his “skinny green bean powers.” I’m sure the kid has muscles. I think he probably does.

Jason: Oh, he’s got muscle, but it’s sinewy.

Erin: (Laughter) He’s sinewy. I mean, he’s got, like, noodle arms and noodle legs. So, talking about physical strength, he’s not muscular at all. He’s into music. Even at age nine, he likes to write songs.

Dannah: He’s such an engaging personality.

Erin: He’s the lone extravert—very people oriented. He doesn’t care about his appearance at all. He has crazy wild man hair.

And then Ezra’s little. He has some very kind of classic little-guy habits. He loves to dig in the dirt with his truck. But he also is still very attached to Mommy.

And they’re just different, so masculinity is not a formula.

Jason: There’s no cookie cutter.

Erin: You wouldn’t look at any of our boys and think of them as anything other than boys. I mean, they are boy boys. But it doesn’t look the same in each of their lives.

Dannah: Right. And it won’t look the same in any child’s life. They’re all going to be a different kind of boy or a different kind of girl.

Erin: Right.

Dannah: But how can we root them in God’s Word so that that type of boy that they are is a godly boy? Where do we begin?

Erin: I think we’ve got to start with the gospel. That’s going to sound so, like, “Of course, the gospel.” But our children don’t come to us understanding the gospel. And if we’re not careful, we’ll communicate to our kids that the gospel is that God cares very much about you being a good boy.

And the gospel is actually that no one is good, and that we all need Jesus. So that gospel foundation is so important because it exposes our need for Jesus. And that is unique.

Jason and I are the same in that we’re both sinners, but we have different propensities towards sin, different areas of sin where we struggle. And our boys are the same way.

So I think that we kind of have a mindset that we are a family that doesn’t put Jesus on display by being perfect—which is really good news, because we can’t. But we put Jesus on display by being really imperfect. Because we’re imperfect, we need Jesus.

Jason: I’d push it back further than that and say that it really starts with prayer. Praying for the child—the boy in this case. But then, making sure they know about it. Every day when we’re in the Jeep in the morning, I pray for them out loud.They all take their hats off and get quiet. And if Ezie’s making noise, they’re, like, “Shhh, be quiet. Dad’s praying.”

But I do it every morning, not necessarily as a show for them, but so that they know that what I’m doing I’m doing anyway. I’m praying for them every day.

Dannah: You’re modeling it.

Jason: Yes. But I want them to see me doing it so they know it’s happening.

Dannah: Yes. You say they take their hats off? You tell them to take their hats off?

Jason: Yes. We don’t pray with our hat on.

Dannah: Why not?

Jason: I don’t think that this is anything that we should communicate to other people as a necessity necessarily, but I think it’s a show of respect. When you’re talking to someone, you take your hat off out of respect. And when you’re praying, take your hat off out of respect.

Dannah: I love that you’re teaching your boys to take their hats off. Like, you’re teaching them to behave like gentlemen.

Bob was always big on teaching Robbie that the girls in the family never carry luggage.

Erin: I like that rule!

Dannah: The two boys did that. When it got to youth group, it was like, “There’s pizza tonight? Did you wait and let the girls go first? Did you wait in line at the end of the line?” Because for Bob, it was a matter of, “How is my son going to grow up to live the truth of Ephesians 5 out where a husband should lay his life down for his wife unless he’s been practicing that all along.” It doesn’t just happen overnight.

Erin: Well, I think if our sons grow up and try to learn that lesson in their first year of marriage for the first time, that’s going to be trouble. So I don’t know if we’ve ever connected the dots that clearly between Ephesians 5, which is a passage we love and affirm in the way we’re raising our sons, and that makes a ton of sense. We want to equip them to live the life God’s called them to live on every front.

And, let’s be clear, this isn’t a biblical issue. I can’t quote the chapter and verse that says, “Thou shalt take off your hat while praying.”

Dannah: Or, “Thou shalt be last in line for pizza if you’re a male.” No. It’s not there.

Erin: Or, “Thou shalt carry every woman’s luggage.”

Dannah: Right.

Erin: But we’re talking about practical ways that we can train our sons to live out the truth that they see in Scripture, which is to live a sacrificial life, which is to consider others more important than yourself, which is, as you quoted from Ephesians 5, husbands laying down their lives for their wives. It has to be lived out in our real lives, and in our culture, that’s one of the ways you can do it.

Dannah: Sure.

Nancy: Well, we just heard a little bit about everything from teaching boys the gospel to teaching boys to be polite. Busy moms need to be ready in season and out of season to discuss these topics with their sons. And all of us are helping to invest in the next generation of boys whether we’re grandmoms, aunts, or serving boys in our church or community.

Jason and Erin Davis have been talking with Dannah Gresh about ways to encourage God-given masculinity in the next generation coming up. And to help even further, they’ve written a new book called, Lies Boys Believe. The subtitle is, The Epic Quest for Truth.

Jason and Erin wrote the kind of book they knew their own sons would enjoy reading. So it’s an adventure story about two boys who learn important lessons. As boys read this book, they’re going to be led in activities that will help them remember the truths they’re learning.

Jason and Erin have also written a parent’s guide. It’ll help you have meaningful discussions with your boys about what they’re reading.

So if you have boys in your life, whether you’re a parent or grandparent or a teacher, I hope you’ll get a copy of Lies Boys Believe. And with Christmas around the corner, this would make a great gift for any family you know who have boys in the eight to twelve year-old range.

We’d like to send you the book and the parent’s guide when you support Revive Our Hearts with a suggested donation today.

We want to help women in all stages and seasons incorporate the truth of God’s Word into their lives and their homes, but we can’t do that without listeners like you who believe in this ministry and give to make it possible. So please visit us at ReviveOurHearts.com to learn more about how you can make a donation and receive the book Lies Boys Believe. And be sure to ask about the parent’s guide as well. Again, that’s ReviveOurHearts.com, or call us at 1–800-569-5959.

Today’s conversation is available on video. The video version includes some footage of Erin and Jason at home on their farm with their boys. You may know some parents who would get a lot out of that conversation. To share the video with them, visit ReviveOurHearts.com. We’ll put a link in today’s transcript.

Dannah: Thanks, Nancy.

Tomorrow, Erin and Jason will be back with ideas for imparting God’s Word to the boys you know. If you’d like to hear more from Erin, be sure to check out her teaching podcast, The Deep Well. It’s part of the Revive Our Hearts’ podcast family. You might see a new teaching series from Erin called, “Lies Boys Believe,” when you subscribe to the podcast.

Revive Our Hearts with Nancy DeMoss Wolgemuth is calling you to freedom, fullness, and fruitfulness in Christ.

*Offers available only during the broadcast of the podcast season.