The Difference It Makes

Dannah Gresh: You know, two words are sometimes all it takes to upset and overwhelm us. Think of phrases like these:

• War declared.
• Rising inflation.
• Tornado warning.
• Car repairs.
• Family trouble.
• Positive biopsy.
• Money gone.
• Job pressures.
• Deep regrets.

Dannah: But there’s a two-word answer for every two-word worry: Heaven rules! Here’s how a listener named Carrie puts it.

Carrie: So if Heaven rules, then I have hope! Then, even when it looks like God is not moving, I know He’s still at work, and I am safe.

Dannah: This is the Revive Our Hearts podcast with Nancy DeMoss Wolgemuth, author of Heaven Rules, for September 20, 2022. I’m Dannah Gresh.

Those two words, “Heaven Rules,” are the title of our current series. They’re also the theme of the True Woman conference starting up the day after tomorrow in Indianapolis. And . . . “Heaven rules” is a phrase found in the Old Testament book of Daniel.

Over the past couple of weeks, Nancy’s been walking us, chapter by chapter, through Daniel. She’s been helping us recognize those reminders that God is completely in control of every detail, even when it involves a wicked government led by a megalomaniac. (Now, if you need to look that up, I’ll just tell you: It means crazy king.)

So, anyway, if you’re just tuning in, you’ll want to catch up by listening on the Revive Our Heartsapp, or at ReviveOurHearts.com. The entire series is called “Heaven Rules: Seeing God’s Sovereignty in the Book of Daniel.”

Now, when Nancy recorded this series, she was joined by a group of women—our studio audience. And today, we’re going to listen to some of the ways they’re applying the truth that Heaven rules in their lives.

We’ll start with Linda.

Linda: I just was so encouraged to put the circumstance that Daniel lived in and to equate it to today to get our focus on the Lord and trusting that He is in control of all that is going on. So I appreciate that.

Nancy DeMoss Wolgemuth: How many times did Jesus say in the gospels, “Watch and pray”? Watch and pray, isn’t that what Daniel did? He watched, and he prayed. He watched, and he prayed. Watch and pray so that you don’t fall into temptation. When we fall into the mire and the muck and the temptation of this world, it’s probably because we’ve not been watching and praying.

But here’s Daniel who had this amazing, pristine testimony, this honorable character through and through, no fault they could find. He’s a man who watched and prayed. 

If God’s people are going to be strong and courageous and pure and stand for Him against the rising tide of evil in our day, we’re going to have to be people who watch and pray. There’s dangers everywhere around us, but “Heaven rules.” Don’t forget it.

Karen?

Karen: I’m just wondering why we see these visions repeated in different views—visions in Nebuchadnezer’s image and then now we see this beast. That amazes me. Like, if you didn’t get it the first time, so I’m giving you this? I mean, is that what you think?

Nancy: I don’t know why, except that God apparently knew we needed it. Daniel needed it. And we need it.

Karen: It’s interesting.

Nancy: It is interesting. We actually have some of this repetition several times through the book of Daniel. And, well, I’ll tell you, I’ve been wading through this and pouring over it and thinking, “What does that mean?” And, “What does the text itself tell us what it means (before we look at what other commentators say it means)?”

A lot of this is unpacked by the text. But, different word pictures that are used, different visions . . . Somebody has said, “When God says anything, it’s true. When He repeats it, you need to pay attention to it. When He says it the third time, it’s like, ‘This is for emphasis’: Holy, holy, holy, holy.”

And perhaps the emphasis here is that we need. You can’t mistake the picture that kingdoms come, kingdoms go. They rise, they fall. Dominion is given to them, dominion is taken away from them. And then will come this King of kings who will reign and rule forever.

And I, for one, am glad, as I’ve been living in Daniel over the last couple of months here, that God did repeat it. Because each time I read and wrestle with these passages, it gives me just a little bit clearer sense–not fully clear, but a little bit clearer sense–of what the message is. It gives me even more confidence in the message and calm in the face of kings.

I was not a history major. A lot of these dates and kings . . . What do we care about Babylon and Medes and Persions and Greek and Rome? What does any of that have to do with any of us? But as we’re soaking in this passage, we realize it has a lot to do with us, because the same things are going on today.

We could talk about the fall of the Berlin Wall and the fall of Communism and the rise of Eastern Europe and the rise of Communism in China and the rise of evil powers and ideologies in our world today. We take comfort, rather than getting bent out of shape, we take comfort as we realize that Heaven rules. All of this is going away. None of this is going to last.

The King of kings, that great stone, that rock, Christ Jesus is going to come. The statue will be destroyed. All the kingdoms of man will fade away, will fall away, will be done away, will fall under the judgment of God. I know I’m repeating myself, but as God repeated for Daniel, this is what we need to keep repeating to ourselves.

Sometimes you just get caught up in this froth and caught up in the tensions and the battle and the fear and the anxiety, and you just start breathing hard. “This is awful. This is terrible.” It’s like I said to Robert. “The book of Daniel is so much better than the news. It comforts your heart and encourages your heart.”

Now, there are times when it’s terrifying because you realize there are hard times coming–harder times coming. So sometimes it does take your breath away, and sometimes it just leaves you undone. But then you lift your eyes up over all of the mess, over all of the confusion, over all of the chaos, and you say, “Heaven rules.” Heaven rules.

And that doesn’t mean you’ve got it all figured out. It doesn’t mean you don’t have dilemmas, or “How do you serve best in this world?” the way Daniel went back and served in the king’s palace. There are hard decisions we have to make. There are places where we will disagree about how to best do that. 

I think just this whole last couple of years of being so polarized in our country politically and with so many things related to the pandemic and within our churches. Like, we’re arguing with the wrong people. Why are we making the core and the heart of our debate between two different political parties? All of this is so secondary. I’m not saying it doesn’t matter at all. I’m just saying it doesn’t matter nearly as much as you would think it does by watching a lot of Christians on social media.

We’ve got to lift our eyes up and watch the big picture. It doesn’t mean we just walk around in a daze down here. No, we need to be informed. We need to be active. We need to be contributing citizens. We need to be good citizens of the kingdom of earth, but that’s not where our allegiance is. That’s not where our loyalty is. That’s not where our hope is. Our hope is in the Lord, and our hope is in His reign and His rule and His kingdom.

Someone else? Sheri?

Sheri: I was challenged by: if God sent His answers to earth in answer to my prayers, what would this world look like? That was a huge challenge to me to pray beyond my little world boundaries that I have.

Nancy: Yes. That was the thing that kept ringing in my heart this week when I see Daniel engaging with God. In most of this, he didn’t know what was going on. Most was a mystery to him. There was so much he didn’t understand. But he knew enough about God, to know Heaven rules, that God is powerful, that God is righteous, that God is compassionate, that God is forgiving. We see all of this in his prayer.

He knew that if Heaven rules, then that’s where we better go to get what we need. He knew that the kings under whom he had served so faithfully . . . He was a citizen in this world. He was an exile in Babylon, and he served that kingdom faithfully. But he knew that was not where his hope was. That’s not where the answers were.

He knew that in order to do what God had put him here on earth to do, he knew to get on his knees and pray. And he did that with his pattern of three times a day. He did it in times of crisis. He did it sometimes for these extended periods where he could hardly eat and food didn’t matter. Prayer mattered. And he didn’t have any clue.

We have a little bit more of a clue because we’re reading this passage now about what God was about through his prayers. But when the angel says, “I have come because of your prayers,” I’m thinking, What prayers did I not pray that, if I had prayed, God might have sent an answer down to this world in ways that would be supernatural? Wow!

We’re not here to lollygag around. That doesn’t mean that every day . . . Daniel had that twenty-one days, that intense prayer of fasting and mourning, that was a three-week period. It wasn’t that way every day. You can’t live under that kind of burden every day of your life.

But when God presses that burden on us, when He shows us something in His Word . . . Here’s Daniel reading a prophecy of Jeremiah. He sees that God has said He’s going to do something. So, what does he do? He goes to prayer. And the fact that we have the book of Daniel today and these prophecies is, in part, because Daniel prayed and then captured what God told him.

So this was not just for him. This was not just for his people in his day. This was for another day he would not live to see. Our prayers today are for, yes, ourselves, our families, and our world. But they may be for a period hundreds or thousands of years later—a day we will not live to see. God is always at work, hearing and sending answers to those prayers.

Yes, there’s a battle going on up there. Daniel didn’t know any of that, that twenty-one days, how the prince of Persia was opposing his prayers. Sometimes our prayers feel like they’re being opposed, and we don’t know why, and we may not know why until we see the Lord.

The Lord probably won’t send an angel to tell us revelation that He gave to Daniel before the completion of this word of truth, but nonetheless, these realities are taking place. And our prayers, somehow, mysteriously, but importantly, are part of what God has decreed as to how He goes about doing His work here on this earth.

Debbie, did you have your hand up? (Let’s get the mic to Debbie.)

Debbie: I love the two words, “Heaven rules,” and what that’s meant in my life since I first heard you teach on it well over a year ago. It’s just like the top of a pyramid, and, like you said, all that that means. It’s just the tip of it. But I know what it means, and God’s been giving me His peace that I’m not in control—Heaven rules.

Just recently, our car was broken into, and my purse, my phone, my house key, car key—everything was stolen. And immediately my heart just began to commune with God. “It’s okay. You’re in control. You’re my everything. This is nothing. This is light and momentary troubles.” As you taught us, I just counseled my heart with the truth. And I was in this oasis of peace that passes all understanding.

And I, not to brag, but I felt like it was like God showing me . . . Just like when you try to lose weight and you get on the scale. It’s all that unseen work, and then you get on the scale, and there’s a victory. So this unseen work of just being in the Word and just letting it wash over me. And then when a crisis happened, I had that testimony of, “God, You’re enough. You’re my only hope.”

My adult kids were there, my grandkids, and my husband, and just to have that testimony that God is in control, and I trust Him.

And then, as you’ve also said, anything that causes you to need God is a blessing. So I’ve been able to share my story: I had this terrible crisis, and here’s what God did. Here’s how He sustained me.

So I could actually thank God for the crisis because it showed me my need for Him and then just seeing my heart go to Him. I thought, Okay, you’re on the right track. Just keep doing what you’re doing and stay plugged in.”

Nancy: That is where the rubber meets the road. What Debbie just shared, this is why good theology matters. It matters that we know God and that we know what He’s like and that we know His Word.

Truth like: Anything that makes me need God is a blessing.

Truth like: God is on His throne, heaven rules.

If we get those buried deep into the very nooks and crannies, the crevices of our hearts, our minds; if we’re counseling our hearts with that truth when we’re not in a crisis, then when the crisis comes, that is what is going to be our paradigm. That is what’s going to be our reflexive reaction, to be reminded that heaven rules, that God is on His throne. Yes, this is something that makes me need God. It’s a horrific situation. But if it makes me need God, it’s a blessing.

And if we’ve been counseling our hearts with this kind of good, biblical, God-centered theology when things are going well, then when things don’t go well or we get burdened or concerned . . . It may be someone else in our world and we’re carrying a burden for them. We’re going to have this rock. We’re not shaken. This is an unshakable promise and truth of God’s Word.

In fact, I’d like to just take a few minutes here, and I wonder if some of you would have any thoughts about: If we really believe that heaven rules, if heaven really does rule, what difference does that make? Like, what’s the “so what” of that? If heaven rules, if God is on His throne, if there’s no political party that rules and reigns, if kings and prime ministers and presidents aren’t ultimate, if circumstances aren’t ultimate; if God rules, what does that mean for us?

You may want to say a specific situation or just in general, but what difference would that make in our lives if we really believed that heaven rules?

Carrie?

Carrie: If God really is near and heaven really does rule, then we’re safe. The kingdom of God is here, and we’re safe no matter what happens. No matter whether our circumstances change or things get more difficult or we actually come under persecution, we’re still safe. We’re safe in His hands. He’s right here with us. We can pray from a place of peace rather than a place of fear. And we can believe that those who don’t yet know Him, He is pursuing them. He is seeking after them in ways that we may have lost hope for.

This weekend I was at a family visitation and got to see for the first time my seventy-seven-year-old uncle who was saved last year, who came to know Jesus. He would tell you he grew up in a church setting where he knew that he was a sinner, but he did not know that Jesus came for sinners. He did not know Jesus drew near to sinners. He did not know that heaven ruling didn’t mean God was far off and had His back turned away from him. It actually meant that Jesus was fiercely and intensely seeking after the man, and he turned toward Him.

So, if heaven rules, then I have hope, that even when things are dark, even when it looks like God is not moving, I know He’s still at work. I’m safe and so are those who I love as He’s seeking after them

Nancy: Amen. I love that, Carrie.

Now, I know you have a heart for the persecuted church. So when we say, “If heaven rules, that means we’re safe,” how does that jive with sometimes there is persecution? There are believers who do lose their lives and are harmed. So, how can we say we’re safe and yet know that there is persecution and there are harmful things done to believers?

Carrie: Yes. That is so true, Nancy. I was reading a book just last week called, Women Who Risk. It’s the stories of Muslim-background believers, women, who were Muslims and have come to know Jesus, written by Tom and JoAnn Doyle.

One of the stories was of a Muslim-background believer, woman and her children, whose husband actually is a part of Hamas and in conflict in the place where they’re living. He’s in conflict with her children living in a refugee tent. She’s encircling them, like God does us, like a mother bird would her chicks. She’s singing and praying over them and reminding them they’re not alone.

They were not safe physically. Their lives are very much in danger. If who she is and who she’s following becomes known in her family and in that camp, she will likely pay for it with her life. And yet, she’s safe. And yet, there’s peace in the middle of that storm.

Nancy: Because this life is not it.

Carrie: Amen.

Nancy: They can kill the body, but they cannot kill the soul.

Carrie: Yes.

Nancy: So, Jesus said, “Don’t fear people who can only kill your body. Fear God who can take your soul.” So for those who belong to God, there is an eternal safety that we have in Christ. He is our refuge. We are safe.

So that’s why we can have perspective on harmful, hurtful things that can—and do—happen in this broken, sinful world to us and to those we love. And yet we say, “In Christ, we are eternally safe.” That’s an implication of believing that heaven really does rule.

Anyone else? If you believe that heaven rules, what difference does it make? Kim? I can see the wheels turning.

Kim: Well, just having teenagers and worrying . . . Both of my children know the Lord, and last I knew, I believe they are following Him. They do go through really big trials and some earth-shattering experiences that you’d think, “Are we going to make it?” But at the same time, trusting that God is ultimately . . . He created them. “All things were made by Christ,” in John 1. And so He has a purpose and a plan for them.

And even though I’m their mother, and I’m highly imperfect, and sometimes I think that other people would do a much better job with them than I’ve done, I just have to remember that He is ultimately in control. He chose to bless me with my children, knowing all my faults and knowing that I was going to fail at times. He’s still in control, and He rules, and His will will be done in their lives.

Nancy: I’m not a mother, but I know a lot of mothers. It seems to me, for a parent to believe that heaven rules can be a really freeing thing. It can free you from fear.

Our kids are growing up in a whacko world. What they’re being taught, from the earliest childhood now, is so contrary to this Word of Truth. So there can be fears: What if they embrace the world’s likes instead of the truth? But when you realize, “I’m not in control. God is.” That’s a gift. That keeps a parent from having to parent in fear-based parenting.

To be able to point your children to God and to pray that the fear of the Lord and the grace of Christ will encompass your children and they will see Christ to be the pearl of great price, the supreme, surpassing treasure. You pray differently for your children. You act differently towards your children. If you believe that you’re in control, then you’re going to tend toward high control, manipulation. And the reason that you do what you do will be out of fear and not out of trust in the Lord.

When your trust is that not only is God writing your own story, but God is writing the story of your children. And He loves them. They are treasured by Him. They’re dearly loved by Him. Then you’re dedicating your children to the Lord—not just when they’re babies, but their whole lives. You keep saying, “Lord, they’re Yours. They’re yours. I’m here to encourage them, to point them to You to live out the gospel, to demonstrate through my life that You are real and that You are worthy of being trusted and loved, but I’m not here to run their lives. You’re the only one who can do that.”

The pressure isn’t on me to draw the ones I love to faith in Christ, to convince them to believe, to convince them to repent of their sins. Yes, we engage and, yes, we say things that need to be said, but the pressure’s not on me or my communication of truth to change people’s hearts. I can’t change anybody’s heart anyway. But I can pray, and I can live out a life that demonstrates that God’s promises are true and that He is good and He is faithful.

They can see me responding under pressure. They can see me responding when I fail and getting God’s forgiveness and mercy when I sin. But we’re not saying it’s up to me to change their heart or to change their mind. That’s a releasing.

And I’m thinking of parents I know who . . . This is true with toddlers, it’s true with school-aged kids, it’s true with teenagers, it’s true with young-adult kids, it’s true with older kids. And I’ve had parents like, just, pouring out their heart to me about things their kids are going through and, “What do I do?” And, of course, those are things that do, they’re troubling, they’re hard. I’m not saying you don’t think about it, but I’m saying there’s a different way, a perspective of dealing with this if you realize, “It’s not up to me.”

It’s not up to me. I’m not God. I can’t change that person. I can’t change that situation. I can’t change this country. I can’t change the craziness that’s going on in our world. I can walk with God. I can pray. I can live as His child, somebody who’s heart is in heaven, but whose feet are here on earth. I can live as a child of God, bringing the kingdom of God to this earth, but I cannot change anybody’s heart. I cannot change my circumstances.

I can live in peace even when I can’t see the outcome, when I can’t see how it’s going to turn out. When it looks like it’s going to turn out terribly, I can trust that God is in control. He is good. He knows what He is doing. And I say, “Lord, if this is for Your glory, then so be it. I trust You with that.”

It’s just a different way of looking at all of life, but I think it’s something that we have to remind ourselves of constantly. I’m not God. I’m not in charge—nor is this person in this particular political office or who runs this nation or who made those laws. Those people aren’t God either.

You see, Daniel never accorded to Nebuchadnezer and Belshazzar and Darius and Cyrus. He respected and served them as earthly monarchs and kings and emperors, but he never accorded to them the power that belongs only to God.He didn’t see them as being ultimately in charge.

I think that’s one of the problems in our world today. We look at who seems to be in charge, the people who think they’re in charge, or the people that we voted and put in charge, and we think, Wow! What a wreck! I’m saying that whatever side of the aisle you’re sitting on, at any given time, there are a lot of people thinking like what’s going on is a wreck.

But if you realize those people are not ultimate . . . We have seen in Daniel that kings come and go. Kingdoms come and go. They are not ultimate. God is ultimate. He is on His throne. He rules. He can be trusted.

So in the big things—nations and kingdoms—and little things—teenagers, adult kids, minor crises of our days—we need to develop this kind of impulse to trust God. He knows what He’s doing.

I’m looking into the eyes of some people in this room right now, and I know others who are listening on the livestream. I know enough about what’s going on in your lives that I know there are some things that are really hard to trust God with.

There are painful things. There are losses. There are hurts. There are broken relationships. There are fears. There are good reasons for anxiety. And if you don’t have anything going on in your own life that would make you anxious, then just open your news app and you’ll find plenty of things that can make you anxious and depressed, which is what a lot of the world is today.

A lot of Christian women are anxious and depressed. And I get it, but there’s no reason for anxiety and depression to control our lives if we really believe that heaven rules. Now, there may be ways and means, steps we need to take to help us deal with that. I’m not saying you just say, “Heaven rules,” and all of a sudden your problems are gone. I’m not talking about your problems going away at all.

Daniel lived in a world that was problem filled. Horrific empires. Horrific persecution against the Jewish people. But Daniel had this frame of reference, this perspective that was not looking around. It was not looking down, it was looking up and seeing that Man clothed in linen, that preincarnate visitation of Jesus Christ. And he prays, and he knows that God is seated on His throne, that God’s kingdom is forever, and that all these kingdoms will be done away with.

All these princes and people who think they control everything—your boss, your this or that—they will not be forever. God is forever. He reigns. He rules. And just to develop a reflexive reaction to go there, to counsel our hearts according to the truth.

I’ve watched some of you in this room not only survive, but thrive, in the midst of some really hard life circumstances, some really hard marriages, some really hard losses. I’ve watched you demonstrate the beauty and the power of the reality that heaven rules. That doesn’t make it easy. That doesn’t mean you’re happy-go-lucky. It doesn’t do away with tears. Tears are not done away with until we’re with the Lord.

So, yes, you weep. I love the fact that we see him multiple times in the book of Daniel where he is weak, he is faltering, he’s shaking, he’s trembling. Like, the fact that heaven rules doesn’t mean you don’t have any of those, that you don’t ever feel the terror or the shaking or the trembling. You do. But he’s tethered to the goodness of God, the greatness of God, the glory of God, the promises of God, this Word of Truth.

He couldn’t hold it in his hands. We can. We’re tethered to that. We just keep going back to Heaven rules. Heaven rules. I know it doesn’t look like it. I know it doesn’t feel like it. I know it doesn’t seem like it. But it’s true. Heaven really does rule, and that’ll give you hope, unquenchable hope, in the midst of some really hard places.

Dannah: Amen! That has certainly been true in my life. 

That’s Nancy DeMoss Wolgemuth in conversation with women in our studio audience. We’ve been studying the book of Daniel and how it reminds us that Heaven rules—which is just another way of saying that God rules. The God of heaven is always ruling. 

Has that truth made a difference in your life? When difficult circumstances come, do you trust God’s plan? Or do you fret and worry? If you’re like me, you don’t always respond perfectly.

That’s why we want you to have Nancy’s book Heaven Rules. It’s all about trusting God in the good and not-so-good times. And, it’s our gift to you when you make a donation of any amount to Revive Our Hearts. To do that, go to ReviveOurHearts.com, or call us at 1-800-569-5959. With your donation, ask for Nancy’s book Heaven Rules. 

And, hey, don’t forget to sign up to watch True Woman '22 online! There will be thousands of women attending in person in Indianapolis, and thousands more watching live, online. It all starts on Thursday, the day after tomorrow, so be sure to register while you still have time. Visit ReviveOurHearts.com to learn more.

It’s easy to fear when things don’t go the way you planned. But if you’re going to be afraid, you need to have the right kind of fear—and that’s the fear of the Lord. Nancy will tell us more tomorrow as she looks at Daniel chapter 11.

To help you get some context and prepare for tomorrow’s teaching, why not read or reread Daniel chapters 10–12 and pray for the Lord to give you understanding, and make a note of any Heaven rules sightings you might find. And then, we’ll see you back tomorrow for Revive Our Hearts.

Revive Our Hearts with Nancy DeMoss Wolgemuth wants you to live out the truth that Heaven rules. It’s just a part of the freedom, fullness, and fruitfulness you’ll find in Christ.

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