The Right Starting Point

Nancy DeMoss Wolgemuth: Hi, This is Nancy DeMoss Wolgemuth. And before we get started on Revive Our Hearts today, I wanted to share some news with you.

If you’re a women’s ministry leader or a pastor’s wife, coming up on Tuesday, August 6, we’re going to be holding a special online event that’s tailor made for women’s ministry leaders like you. The theme is “Overcoming Lies Leaders Believe.” You’ll be hearing from Dannah Gresh, Karen Allen, Karen Hodge, Kesha Griffin, and more. For all the details, check out ReviveOurHearts.com/events. Now, here’s today’s edition of Revive Our Hearts.

Dannah Gresh: It’s not unusual to hear people talk about the importance of love.

Man: Yeah! Love, man. Just love!

Dannah: Dr. Christopher Yuan will help clarify our thinking about popular concepts of love.

Dr. Christopher Yuan: God is love. But when we say just love, we’re not saying that God is love. We’re saying love is God because love definitely should be how we’re known. But love should not be an end in itself. Love should be a means to an end. In other words, we love people to Christ.

Dannah: This is the Revive Our Hearts podcast for June 6, 2024. I’m Dannah Gresh. Our host is the author of Lies Women Believe and the Truth That Sets Them Free, Nancy DeMoss Wolgemuth.

Nancy: Maybe you know someone who’s living in a far country, so to speak, as the prodigal son was in the story that Jesus told. There’s a beautiful moment in that parable. He had wasted all his money and had a menial, filthy job of taking care of pigs—something no good Jewish boy would ever be found doing.

The phrase I’m thinking of is in verse 17 of Luke chapter 15. It says, “When he came to his senses.” That was the beginning of that son’s big turn around.

Well, that’s the moment so many parents of prodigals are praying for. “Lord, bring my son, (my daughter, my grandchild), bring them to their senses.”

And, sadly, a common area today where many prodigals get lost and need to come to their senses is in the whole realm of gender and sexuality.

Today’s guest has dedicated his life and ministry to helping people come to their senses, even as God brought him to his senses many years ago. Here’s Dannah Gresh to introduce our guest.

Dannah: Dr. Christopher Yuan experienced a dramatic conversion from an agnostic, gay man, who put his identity in his sexuality to be a Bible professor at Moody Bible Institute who puts his identity in Christ alone. He was with us yesterday, and he ended on that note. He’s with us today to share a thoroughly gospel-centered examination, I would say, of sex, desire, and relationships. Welcome back, Christopher.

Christopher: Oh, thanks so much for having me back again, Dannah.

Dannah: Oh, we’re so glad.

You know, yesterday you mentioned that you had been given a book by a pastor or a layman that was a defense of that homosexuality wasn’t condemned by the Scriptures. You took that book, and you placed it next to the Bible, and you decided that you wanted to base your decision on what was true about homosexuality on the Bible’s words alone.

I want to know: what did you find in the Bible about homosexuality?

Christopher: This is what’s so amazing about the Holy Spirit and how the Holy Spirit convicts us, because I knew I wanted—like, everything inside of me wanted . . . It was my flesh that was saying, “Oh, great! Now I can have my cake and eat it too!”

I don’t even know what it was . . . I mean, it was the Holy Spirit, really, that made me, in a sense, encouraged me to not just read the book but have the Bible next to me.

So as I was looking, I just realized, “You know, actually this is just a story.” I was reading the book, and whenever this author mentioned a Bible verse, I didn’t just take his word for it. I actually went and opened up the Bible. I often joke, I had tons of time on my hands. (laughter)

Dannah: Cause at the time you were still in prison. Is that the joke?

Christopher: I was still in prison. Yes. I had a lot of time on my hands. And so I just went wherever a Bible passage was mentioned, or often it was just a verse. It wasn’t a whole passage. I would go to the Bible and actually read the whole passage. And almost every single time I said, “That’s not what the Bible is saying.” I mean, when you read the whole thing in context, the whole paragraph, even the whole book or the chapters around it, that’s not what Paul was saying, that’s not what Moses was saying.

So I just went through it. I gave the book back to the chaplain, and I just turned to the Bible alone. Isn’t it so true that we want to negotiate with God? We want to have it all. We want the world. We want Jesus. We put Him on the shelf along with all the other idols that we have. That’s what our flesh, our human nature wants.

As I searched throughout the pages of Scripture, I went cover to cover several times . . . because I had so much time. I didn’t find anything. I was trying to kind of do this whole argument that said, “Let’s just set these six verses aside (which we can’t do but let’s set them aside). Let’s see if there are any verses in the Bible that actually promotes or advocates or affirms a same-sex relationship.”

I went through the whole Bible. There was nothing in Scripture. Actually, the whole Bible promotes sex for marriage between one man and one woman.

Many, many times people will call these six passages in the Bible that touch on homosexuality that calls it sin. Three in the Old Testament. Three in the New Testament: Genesis 19, Leviticus 18, Leviticus 20. And then going to the New Testament: Romans 1, 1 Corinthians 6, 1 Timothy 1.

Then we also have Jude. So that could be seven. But let’s just stick to the six. Many times people call them “clobber passages.” Here’s an important thing for this misnomer of these six passages as a “clobber passage”: when we call any verse in the Bible, God’s Word, to be a “clobber passage,” we actually don’t understand the gospel. Let me tell you some other verses that could be used as “clobber passages.”

How about, “No one seeks after God.” That’s a pretty strong passage there, Dannah.

How about, “The wages of sin is death.” I would say that could be called a so-called “clobber passage” if we didn’t understand the gospel. Because, what’s the rest of that verse that Paul says? “For the wages of sin is death, but . . .” I love when the Bible says “but”—but God . . . but Jesus. “. . . but the gift of God is eternal life.”

So we can’t actually really say that that’s a “clobber passage” if we didn’t understand the whole passage. Even, for example, 1 Corinthians 6, “Do not be deceived, neither the sexually immoral, nor idolaters” and the list goes on. It’s a big, long list, which, to be honest, includes everyone.

If we just stuck to there, maybe we could call that a “clobber passage,” if we just isolated it from the rest of Scripture. But we need to read the following verse, which says “such were . . .” It’s one of my favorite verses in the whole Bible—“such were.”

What’s the tense of were? It’s past tense. “Such were some of you. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and in the Spirit of our God” (v. 11)

So there is no Bible verse that is a “clobber passage.” They all point to who we are—that we’re sinners—and who God is—the Savior of sinners. And that, Dannah, is good news. That’s actually amazing news.

So, I was looking through the verses, and I thought, Let’s just set these verses aside (which we can’t). And I thought, Let’s look at the whole rest of the Bible. Then I realized, Wow! The Bible really emphasizes marriage. This is not a trivial thing to agree to disagree.

We have Genesis 2 beginning with a wedding.

We have Revelation 19, which is the marriage supper of the Lamb.

We have Jesus’ first miracle at Cana—the wedding at Cana.

There are so many metaphors throughout Scripture about marriage—husband and wife. And then Jesus, when He’s asked about divorce in Matthew 19 and Mark chapter 10, we see that the Pharisees wanted to pull Jesus into that argument when they were quibbling about the law, the law of Moses: “Could you divorce a wife for any reason?”

Some were saying, “Yes. If my wife burned my dinner, my meal, I could divorce her.”

And the other rabbis were, like, “No. That’s ridiculous. No. It can only be sexual immorality.”

They were quibbling over what Moses meant by this certificate of divorce which is found in the Law.

Jesus knew, being God, that they were wanting to pull Him into this whole argument because they could kind of counterpoint and pull Him into “yes” or “no.” Then they could have an argument for each side. And Jesus realized, “I’m not going to get into all that.”

And He went to something that is actually the foundation of the Law, which is creation. He went back to Genesis 1 and Genesis 2, and He said, “The Creator made the male and female (that’s Genesis 1:27), and the two shall become one flesh. What God has put together, let man not separate.” (That’s from Genesis 2:24).

So what Jesus was actually doing was not only schooling them on why divorce is wrong (that’s from Genesis 2, ”The two shall become one flesh”). But He actually pulled in something that might seem extraneous for some, but Jesus never does anything extraneous. He pulled in Genesis 1:27, “God made them male and female.” Why did He do that? Because He was not only schooling them on divorce, but actually schooling them on the definition of marriage. There is no marriage apart from male and female, husband and wife. And if we have an issue with that, we have an issue with Jesus.

Dannah: See, I love that Jesus does that. He doesn’t turn to the “Thou shalt not” passages, the “clobber passages,” as you say. He could have. He definitely could have. He knew those. He grew up as a boy learning those passages from Leviticus. And yet, He says, “In the beginning,” and He goes back to what the Designer defined was true about us as males, as females, as sexual beings. I think that’s a beautiful, beautiful place to go.

What would you say to people who come to you, and they are believing the books that say you can be gay and Christian. Is gay/Christian an oxymoron?

Christopher: (This is unclear to me: Audio: 0:12:9.4) Ultimately, in every situation where I’ve seen what people are, it’s how we term things that oftentimes changes mind. It’s not that it’s often called this. It’s an affirming view . . . Well, actually, the correct way to call it is it’s rejecting God’s truth on sexuality. It’s rejecting biblical sexuality.

So, in every situation where I’ve seen where people have rejected biblical sexuality and still claim to be Christian. What I find as, really, the core issue is that they no longer hold to a high view of Scripture in every single case.

Now, they will argue. They say, “No. I have a high view of Scripture.” But when you really press, and you look at their hermeneutics, they don’t have a high view of the Old Testament as Jesus did. I mean, Jesus and the New Testament writers, they had a very high view of the Old Testament. They didn’t just say, “Oh, well, we don’t follow that anymore.” They knew that there obviously have been some things that have been fulfilled in Christ, but we still have a high view of God’s truth.

And so, really, what I think we need to encourage people is to help them to see that. When you have a low view of Scripture, and you don’t fully understand God’s truth, especially as articulated by Jesus and the New Testament apostles, how they affirmed many things in the Old Testament. The greatest commandment comes from Deuteronomy 6. The second greatest commandment also comes from the Old Testament.

We often know the greatest commandment comes from Deuteronomy 6. Many, many Christians do not know where the second greatest commandment, “Love your neighbor as yourself,” comes in. It actually comes in Leviticus 19.

Why is that significant to this discussion on homosexuality? Because the two strongest condemnations against homosexuality is found in Leviticus 18, verse 22 and Leviticus 20, verse 13. Many times people will just wipe those away and argue them. “We don’t follow that. That’s from Leviticus. And even that portion of Scripture, chapters 18, 19, and 20, we don’t follow that.”

Well, if we want to wipe out those important condemnations, prohibitions against same-sex sex and same-sex relationships, we also then need to wipe out Leviticus 19, which is sandwiched by these two verses against homosexuality, which will then wipe out the second greatest commandment, “Love your neighbor as yourself.”

And ultimately, when an individual has this low view of Scripture, you know what that changes? That changes the gospel and who Jesus is. 

When we approach this strictly as Christianity is just about fighting for the marginalized.

Is that what it is? We do fight for the marginalized, but that is not the sole purpose for why Jesus came. Because if it was the reason for why Jesus came, Jesus would not need to die on the cross to simply fight for the marginalized.

So, this is why it not only changes the gospel, but it changes the nature of Jesus because then Jesus is no longer the one who reconciles us to Christ by His death on a cross to satisfy the wrath of God. But then Jesus is simply just a good person, an example of how we fight for the marginalized.

Jesus is not simply an example. He is our Savior.

Dannah: You said something that just lit a fire in my heart just a moment ago when you pointed out the proximity of “Love your neighbor as yourself,” in Leviticus to those verses that were really cautions against our sexual sins. That proximity seems like it probably wasn’t accidental.

Christopher: That’s right.

Dannah: Because I feel like many times as we talk about what is true and what is right, there are many Christians doing that without loving and without kindness. Speak into that.

Christopher: Yes. Many times we hear people that say, “You know, my job is to just love.” And often it will be getting into, “My job is not to judge.”

And to be honest, that misunderstands what Jesus says when He says, “Do not judge.” Because Jesus also says, “Do not judge by appearances, but judge with right judgment.” That’s John chapter 7, verse 24.

So, when we read the whole Bible canonically, and I think that is a key aspect to not just understanding these passages on homosexuality, but how we interpret the Bible as a whole.

Canonically means that I’m reading, let’s say, Isaiah, in light of Genesis, in light of Acts, in light of Revelation. Reading the Bible canonically means that we’re not just reading it in light of literary context (meaning the verses and chapters around it) not only in light of historical context, like what’s going on at the time this is written, but in light of the whole canon. That’s canonical context. I’m reading it in light of the whole Bible because Scripture interprets Scripture.

So when we read a verse like, “Do not judge,” we need to read it in light of all the rest of the verses in the Bible. So we do need to actually judge, but we judge rightly.

But people say, “My job is not to judge,” which is not correct. We are called to judge. I mean, even, we are called to judge angels. We are to judge the world, as Paul says in 1 Corinthians, which is called to judge rightly.

But then, here’s the aspect that I want to focus on: where it says I’m called to just love.

Well, here’s the issue: I do not have an issue with love. But there are two things: first, how do we define love? Second, my issue is the “just” part. 

We are definitely called to love. God is love. But when we say, “Just love,” we’re not saying that God is love. We’re saying love is God because love definitely should be how we’re known—that’s biblical. That’s what the Bible teaches. But love should not be an end in itself. I do not simply “just love.” Love should be a means to an end.

In other words, we love people to Christ. Christ must always be our all in all. I mean, in the video series, every single lesson I end with this: now go and follow Jesus. I actually articulate what that means. Jesus actually defines what that means to be a follower of Christ. He says, “Deny yourself. Take up your cross and follow Jesus” (Luke 9:23).

As a matter of fact, in lesson one of the video series, I do like a catechism in a sense. That’s how we all raise kids for the millenia. These catechisms are question and answer, question and answer.

The first question was: what’s the ultimate goal when it comes to sexuality? And the answer—kind of pulling from some other catechisms and confessions—the ultimate goal when it comes to sexuality is to glorify God by denying yourself, taking up your cross, and following Jesus.

See, Jesus must always be the end goal. Love does not save. Jesus saves.

So we need to be really clear. As a matter of fact, not only do we have the second greatest commandment sandwiched among these two verses talking about sexual purity and, specifically, the prohibition against same-sex relationships, but many times people didn’t know the context.

Now, the first-centuryJews, first-century Christians, they definitely knew the context because they probably memorized the Old Testament. They knew the Pentateuch, the Torah, the Law, very, very well. Here’s something that we often miss when it comes to that second greatest commandment:

It talks about not only “love your neighbor as yourself,” (that’s Leviticus 19:18), but we also have the verse preceding that in Leviticus 19, verse 17. It says, “Do not hate your brother in your heart. Rebuke your neighbor frankly so you will not share in his guilt” (NIV). So actually, convicting people of their sin.

And then the following verse, it says, “Do not seek revenge . . . but love your neighbor as yourself.”

When Jesus says “love your neighbor as yourself,” they knew the context that actually an aspect of loving your neighbor is to rebuke them so you will not share in his guilt. That is love. It is actually unloving to allow people or to just be okay with people’s sin. Certainly, we’re not going to hit people over the head. I’m not saying that. We don’t need to keep reminding them.

My mother, she did not . . . I don’t even remember her saying, “You’re living in sin. You’re going to hell.” She never said that. But I knew where she stood when it comes to sexuality. I knew it. She didn’t need to keep reminding me of it. Her actions were clear that she was loving me to Christ.

That is our ultimate goal. That really is what loving your neighbor means, that we are being full of grace and full of truth. Not grace at the expense of truth that I think sometimes is our tendency, especially this younger generation. Not grace at the expense of truth, nor truth at the expense of grace. But full of grace and full of truth.

Dannah: Yes. We don’t balance those two things well, though. I think the caution for me is that we don’t just love, but that we love and speak the truth. We do both out of our identity in Christ. Right?

Christopher: Amen.

Dannah: Nancy often talks about if someone is in a burning house, it would be a very unloving thing not to knock on the door, wake them up. You don’t say kindly, “Oh, they’re sleeping. I’m just going to let them sleep soundly.” You’re going to pound on that door. You’re going to break windows. You’re going to do whatever you need to do to get them to wake up and get out of that burning house.

Christopher: Amen.

Dannah: But that has to be done with the right motivation. That’s a big part of it, isn’t it, the right motivation? That your motivation is love. Not being right. But loving out of righteousness.

Christopher: Amen.

Dannah: Tell me, Christopher, what do you think as we Christians reach out to the gay community, which seems like it is getting bigger and bigger every day. I know so many more people now that are struggling with that than I did ten, twenty years ago. What is it that we might not understand about how to share the gospel with them? How can we grow in our understanding?

Christopher: I think one of the main things that Christians miss when we want to share the gospel, when we want to better understand our loved one who identifies as gay or lesbian or even so-called transgender; the main issue is how the world and our loved ones have conflated sexuality with who we are. We need to start there. Because if we’re trying to jump into, “Well, this is sinful behavior,” how can we convince someone that this is sinful behavior if they don’t even view it as behavior.

What do I mean? If we were to go back twenty-five years ago, before my conversion, before I knew Christ, and you were to tell me that this is sin; I would not hear you saying what I’m doing is sin or what my relationship or the desires I have are sinful. I would hear you say that my whole person, from head to toe, is reprehensible, not only to you, but to God.

This is why I said yesterday, I could not hate my sin without hating myself. We need to start there. That their essence is wrong. They have the wrong starting point.

And why does that matter so much? Why? Am I just quibbling over terminology or words? No. Because how we answer that question, “Who am I?” is going to affect our thoughts. It’s going to affect our choices. It’s going to affect our relationships. It’s going to affect everything—how we live.

So, as we have this wonderful desire to share with them the gospel, I think we need to realize the biggest stumbling block is that their conflating completely and fully, that their sexuality or their self-perception of themselves, whether they think they’re man or woman, that has been distorted by the Fall, but it has truly become who they are.

And then, ultimately, we’re not pointing people to just no longer sin. That’s behavior management. I think not sinning, that’s a good goal. But how can someone, “Go and sin no more” if they don’t know Christ? I always want to bring it back to Jesus Christ.

Many times in our approaches, when it comes to sexual brokenness in general or even our approaches when it comes to homosexuality or transgenderism, it can seem a bit like human effort and behavior management. But how could we ever even change ourselves? How can we “go and sin no more” if Christ is not abiding in us?

For my parents, when they were in my life and they were kind of doing the spiritual gift of waiting, waiting for God to work, they were very present in my life. And just through very natural ways, they showed what Christ meant to them. The gospel is offensive to people. I didn’t like to see the change in their lives. But that was planting seeds that the gospel has power to change lives.

Why? Because I saw that in my mom’s life. Why? Because I saw that in my dad’s life. I mean, I did not leave pursuing same-sex relationships because my mom and dad convinced me I was living in sin. No. I mean, if you remember yesterday, I didn’t pick up the Bible from the trash can because . . . I would never have done that if I hadn’t seen the Word of God lived out in my father’s life and my mother’s life. I didn’t leave pursuing same-sex relationships because they convinced me that it was sinful.

Instead, they showed me something better, and His name is Jesus.

Our job is to show a dying world out there—our unbelieving loved ones, neighbors, friends, coworkers, etc.—that not only is following Jesus better, but following Jesus is best.

Nancy: We’re listening to a helpful conversation between Dr. Christopher Yuan and the cohost of Revive Our Hearts, Dannah Gresh. They’ll be back with more tomorrow.

The video series they were talking about is a twelve-session series by Christopher called, “The Holy Sexuality Project.” It’s designed specifically for parents to go through with their teenagers. You’ll find more information, along with how you can order it, linked in the transcript of today’s program at ReviveOurHearts.com.

I mentioned earlier that the whole arena of gender and sexuality is one where there’s so much confusion today. Many parents and grandparents are contacting us here at Revive Our Hearts, expressing the anguish that they’re feeling over a prodigal young person in their lives. They long for this one that they sincerely love to come to his or her senses, just as the younger brother did in the story that Jesus told.

Maybe you’re experiencing that longing, too. You feel like you can’t do anything. Well, that’s not entirely true. Here’s something you can do: You can pray.

This month at Revive Our Hearts we’re issuing a pray for your prodigal challenge. We’ve compiled a month-long set of devotionals and prayers that you can pray for the prodigal you love. I think this may be one of the most important challenges we’ve ever offered, and one I think will resonate with so many of our listeners.

There’s two ways you can receive that challenge. You can sign up, and each day during the month of June we’ll email you the next passage to read, some comments to think through, and a sample prayer for how you can pray for your prodigal. And what a joy to know that you’re praying along with thousands of others who may be in similar situations. The prayer challenge is called “While You Wait for Your Prodigal. You can sign up to receive that email prayer challenge at ReviveOurHearts.com. 

I said there’s another way you can get it, and that’s when you make a donation of any amount to Revive Our Hearts. We’ll be glad to send you a book that our team has produced with this same content but space to journal. It’s a beautiful book that I think will be a great encouragement to you. It has all the same information. When you make a donation of any amount, we’ll be glad to send that book version as our way of saying “thank you.”

Again, all the information about the email version or the book version, it’s all available at ReviveOurHearts.com or by calling 1-800-569-5959.

Well, as you probably heard, eighty years ago today, June 6, 1944, we refer to it as D-Day, the allied armies invaded Normandy. That battle was a hard-fought one. Casualties were high, but it proved to be the turning point of World War II.

Well, we’re in a war now. It’s a war for souls. It’s a war for our families. And the devil has his sights set on our young people. Tomorrow Christopher Yuan will be back to talk more specifically about how we can help teens gain a biblical understanding and appreciation of who God created them to be as young men and young women.

Even if you’re not a parent of teens yourself, you know others who are, and the Lord likely brings young people into your life. I hope you’ll listen, and perhaps God will use it to help turn the tide in the battle for sexual holiness. Please be back tomorrow for Revive Our Hearts.

This program is a listener supported production of Revive Our Hearts in Niles, Michigan, calling women to freedom, fullness, and fruitfulness in Christ.

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